Announcer:
Welcome to the Global Investors Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market. Host, Charles Carillo, combined decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now here’s your host, Charles Carillo.
Charles:
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast; I’m your host Charles Carillo. Today we have Heidi Henderson. Heidi has over 25 years of tax and accounting experience in the Real Estate Finance, Development, Construction, and Commercial Property Areas. Her firm, ETS is a licensed Engineering firm focused on specialty tax services relating to federal tax incentives and strategies for Real Estate owners. So thank you so much for being on the show, Heidi.
Heidi:
Yeah, absolutely. I’m really glad to be here with you today.
Charles:
So ETS is a firm that we’ve used for some of our purchases and doing cost segregations, but what was your professional background prior to working at ETS?
Heidi:
Oh, you know what I was my background is in accounting. So although when I started right out of college, I got involved with a real estate firm and was on the accounting side. So it was really interesting. I was always really interested in real estate and investing and how that works. So being on the accounting side, of course, I’m looking at all the cashflow statements and projections and planning and all of these things. I was actually before coming to be with ETS, I was a controller for a resort in Utah and it was really fantastic. You know, as a destination resort, it was amazing with a ski resort and a golf course and a lot of different real estate developments that we were building some planned residential unit properties and things we were developing out. But as time went on and the resort became developed, it became very much about accounting position. And I realized, I think I need a little bit more excitement in my life. I need a little bit more social interaction and I don’t think I’m suited to look at spreadsheets all day everyday for the next 25 years. So so I decided to take a leap of faith and I absolutely love what I do because I’m still on the accounting side. But as I joke, and, and many of my CPA clients say, you know what, Heidi, it’s so unfair because you get to do all of this. And at the end of the day, you’re like, wow, look, I saved you $1.3 million and they’re like, and then you send it to us and we prepared the tax return and we’re like, whoa, good job. You need to write me a check for $375,000. So the IRS and I says, yes. And that is exactly why I’m where I’m at.
Charles:
So what are some of the services that ETS provides to clients?
Heidi:
No, we, as a specialty tax firm are very much like you know, in the medical space, you know, we’re kind of the we’re brain, we’re brain surgeons. So we’d get really into the depth and the intricacies of real estate as it applies to temps. A lot of people don’t even realize that there’s a business in what we do, but we do cost segregation studies, which is really diving into all of the components of a building and treating all of those individual assets, more like inventory so that we’re not just treating it as one large asset. So that’s a big one. A couple of other ones that a lot of people aren’t familiar with our energy incentives, one 79 D is for energy efficient commercial buildings. It’s a deduction that can be claimed to really help pay for offset. Some of the higher costs for more efficient systems like led lights and more efficient water heaters and air conditioning units and all those components.
Heidi:
45 L is another one that is for multifamily housing. It’s a $2,000 tax credit per unit for developers who specialize in multi-family. We, we do historical tax credits. We consult on opportunity zone investments. You know, we have this really broad plethora of services as it relates to investing and optimizing that from a tax standpoint. And then one of the most recent additions as of last year is we have a program have developed a program of the largest network of technology providers in the country who look to lease roof pops from business owners, for 5g towers and other technology. And that has been tremendous through COVID because it can really find additional revenue that a building owner wouldn’t have even known was, was an opportunity. And in certain things like hotels really struggled last year, we’ve been able to negotiate some really fabulous leases for 5g towers and other things on their rooftops. So those were kind of an idea of some of the things that we specialize in.
Charles:
I see I’ve had a partner that we did billboards before on buildings. So it’s a, you have to have the right zoning. It’s usually for mixed use properties. You probably just can’t slap it onto your apartment complex, nor would anybody probably rent most of them rooftop spaces that they’re on. But very interesting. So I think the main one I’ve heard and you went through a few of them, there is cost segregation. So can you kind of explain those what’s cost segregation? When I talk to people, I say it’s like a hole you’re talking to someone, I usually explain, like it’s an appraisal that’s coming on the property in so many words where they’re going through and they’re pretty much checking everything. What is the whole, what does, like, what can you break down? Why someone would do a cost segregation on their property?
Heidi:
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s, it is very common for there to be confusion. And, and we will have building owners who will say, well, you know, my CPA takes care of this stuff for us. But in actuality you have to realize that your CPA is like a family practice doctor. They know a lot, they know a little bit about everything in relation to the code, but these parts of the tax code require this specialized. And when we deal with a cost SEG study, we’re ultimately looking at a building from a forensic standpoint. If you go out and you buy a building existing, let’s call it a multifamily building got a big apartment complex that you purchase. You pay, let’s just use the $2.5 million number. So we buy it $2.5 million apartment complex, and your CPA is going to look at that. Well, they have no idea nor do you, what, what did you pay at a 2.5? what did you pay for the roof and what are the costs of the appliances in each of those units? What carpet, and, you know, is there a laundry room? What about the windows and the landscaping or the paving outside? Do we actually know how much of your 2.5 million went towards each of these individual components? And that’s a very difficult question to answer without some sort of an analysis. So that’s what we’re doing is we’re going in and really doing. It’s actually an appraisal on the value of each of those individual components of the building. We’re creating an inventory to show and reflect everything that you acquired to show that you didn’t just simply buy a piece of real estate. You bought thousands of assets, which include refrigerators and ovens and microwaves and cabinetry and all of these different things. So, okay, that’s great. We’ve got this data, but what’s the point. The point is that the way that the IRS have used it is that if you buy real estate, it has, what’s called a useful life of, you know, for multi-family 27 and a half years, 39 for commercial, but we know where you buy an apartment complex. The appliances are not going to last 27 and a half years, nor is the carpet. And if they do, you probably have a bigger problem, you know, it’s going to fall down around your ears. And so, so understanding the value of those one allows us to take a very rapid depreciation of those assets. So we have more write-offs. And to when you do improvements to that property have to replace something. It allows you to go back to that particular item and write it off to take a loss when that’s removed. So you don’t just keep taking depreciation for an asset you don’t even have anymore. So it’s very it’s very applicable tangible to how you deal with, or manage the property as you own it and do improvements and, and operate that over the life of that property. So it has many advantages both in the first year, as well as future in subsequent years.
Charles:
Interesting. So is there a little prepping that a investor buys a property and they come to you, what should they have done before, other than purchase the property B when they’re bringing the car and they say, we want to do a cost segregation, what what should they do to prepare for you giving you handed off to you?
Heidi:
Yeah, that’s a, that’s a good one. You know, it’s amazing. We, you know, because we’re really, we do a physical site visit. We’re really going to rebuild that from the ground up from really what’s in existence. We can do a cost sag with very limited information. You know, people think, well, I don’t have blueprints. I just bought this and they didn’t give me blueprints. They don’t give me cost breakdowns. Yeah. Was built 30 years ago. We can still do that with limited information. We would love to have a copy of your appraisal. We would love to have a copy of inspection report. But, but ultimately the closing statement is the most important cause. So we, we obviously know what you paid and what you’re tying that to. So those are important factors. One thing that I would recommend to an investor that people don’t think about is consider the land value for that particular building, because that actually can have a significant impact on how much depreciation you can claim. If I buy a $2.5 million building, and it’s in an area where the land is very expensive and I come out at a 60% land value, I’m, I’m able to take what a million dollars of depreciation and all the rest goes to land. So if I’m looking at us comparable building and the land value is 20%, you know, that’s 500,000. Now I have $2 million of depreciation for my building. There’s a lot more depreciable value for that property than one with a really high land allocation. So that’s something that you would want to look at the county tax assessors ratio. You look at the property tax bill, look to see what they have listed for land versus building and the ratio of those numbers. Because, you know, like I say, a lot of investors maybe don’t consider that or even think about it when they’re looking at a building and it can be one of the biggest factors in terms of the shift, either good or bad in terms of your depreciation.
Charles:
Interesting. So once they hand that off with all that information to you, what is your process and like timeline normally, obviously with COVID, obviously that was probably changed, but typically, what is your timeline and process for doing cost segregation
Heidi:
From the day that we get the initial information say you buy a building and forward over a closing statement, we’ll have a cost benefit analysis back. Usually within two to three business days, that’s going to outline what we’re estimating straight line, normal depreciation. Here’s the comparison to what we believe the depreciation will be. If you move forward with the cost SEG study, and here’s a fixed fee price for that analysis. So you have all of that data up front is wonderful for tax planning purposes. From there. If you decide to move forward, we get a signed engagement letter. We begin to proceed through that six weeks is what that process looks like. Within two weeks, we’ll schedule a site visit within another two to three weeks. We have out results, final reports no later than six from the date we get started. So that’s kind of the process. You know, we always wrap up with a closing call. We circle back around with final results and we look at the report and I’ve always asked the question, how was the process? You know, how did you feel about that? And one of the comments that I get all the time, which I love is that was so much easier than not expected, you know, really was very streamlined. It did not take very much time, you know, on my part. And you guys communicated well through the process. So that’s our goal is to make it as as, as easy and streamlined as possible for the investor.
Charles:
Nice. What does something like that usually costs maybe if you had, if you, if you had an example of something recently you’ve done where, what you’ve saved someone and what the cost was on it, if you, if you don’t mind sharing.
Heidi:
Yeah. You know, classes can, can vary. Obviously there’s the way that we develop our pricing. We set pricing for a project. There are a couple of factors. One location, two is the square footage of the property and three is the type of property. So we may be looking at 150,000 square foot apartment complex that has 200 units. And maybe they have two unit types. That project for us is a little bit easier because the units are all exactly the same. So from an engineering standpoint, we can kind of duplicate that through our report, the cost for something, you know, ballpark of that type of project might be, you know, eight or $9,000. You could then go to, let’s say 150,000 square foot office slash manufacturing or distribution facility, you know, big commercial, industrial building. The cost for that might be 10 or 11,000 same square footage, but it’s a much larger project with a lot more intricacies, a lot more unique fixtures and finishes than what we find in an apartment where we can duplicate one unit over multiple multiple spaces. So pricing is really looking at the time and complexity that it takes our team to create that final report, to give you kind of a ballpark of the benefit, you know, for using, again, this example I keep using of this multifamily property and we call it 2 million. And if we have that 20% land value that leaves us a $2 million depreciable basis, it’s pretty common for us to achieve about 30% that we can reclassify as personal property within that building that’s carpeting and appliances and, you know, landscaping and things that are really not structural. It’s not the building itself, it’s the finishes within or around the building. And if we reclassify 30% of that, that would actually equate $600,000 with the current tax code, which then allows us to claim bonus depreciation that allows us to claim a hundred percent of that in the first year. So you could buy a building December 15th of 2021. We went 5 million, we do it across X study. And the results for the first year depreciation would be over $600,000 of depreciation in year one. And, you know, ballpark, as I said, maybe eight to $9,000 is kind of a ballpark price for doing that type of a study. So, you know, the, the cost versus benefit is really, really significant provided utilization, provided the investors in the deal and who’s paying income tax and how all that flows down. So that gets a little more complicated, but those are things that we really help our investors work through.
Charles:
Interesting. That’s pretty, that’s pretty great. What, what is the useful life cause obviously 27 and a half is what they put for the building. What do you usually like for fixtures and stuff like faucets and all this stuff? I mean, what does that come down to be? I mean, obviously with the bonus depreciation, does that really matter? Cause you can just put all that back as personal property. Is that how it
Heidi:
Works? Yeah. So the, the useful lives for those other assets the personal property, things like you were saying, fixtures, carpeting, appliances, specialty lighting, some of those items five years. So it goes from 27 and a half to five five-year class life. The land improvements would be anything that is not attached to the bill thing. So parking lots, landscaping, curb and gutter, exterior signage, exterior lighting anything again, unattached to the building that is considered 15 year property. So it gets shifted from 27 and a half to 15, but the big kicker is, as I had said, the bonus depreciation right now, the tax code is crazy because it allows a hundred percent bonus, which means it specifically says any asset with the useful life shorter than 20 years and be immediately deducted in full in year one. So we reclassify those items. I just defined as five or 15 year assets, but we actually take them all immediately. So that’s where that 600,000 plus number comes from as kind of an example of the benefit.
Charles:
Awesome. And with the other thing too, that I haven’t learned too much about is the energy incentives. What, what can, how does that really work? You said something about new development. Are there other energy incentives? I imagine they are for renovation of multifamily properties, for example, or other properties.
Heidi:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there’s the two that I mentioned one 79 D is a tax deduction. It applies to any commercial building. Any height, any type or multi-family that’s four stories or so high rise multi-family or mixed use buildings. We would have the ability to apply one 70 90. What it is is it’s an energy efficiency deduction. It’s up to a dollar 80 per square foot and it applies to new construction and renovations. So the renovation aspect is three different components. The dollar 80 a square foot breaks out into three sections. They’re 60 cents a square foot for lighting retrofits. So company goes in and says, Hey, I’m going to switch out all these two led fixtures. They could claim 60 cents a square foot. If you go into an existing building and replace the mechanical systems with all of your air conditioning and heating units that would claim another 60 cents a square foot.
Heidi:
So it would be a dollar 20 if you did lighting and HVAC. And then the third is building envelope. So that one on a renovation can be a little harder, but that’s, that is if you install an energy efficient roof, maybe you go to a, you know, a white reflective roof, that’s more efficient new windows, new doors, maybe some insulation that can create some efficiencies that will allow you to claim the 60 cents for the building envelope. Or the whole thing, as I said, is a dollar 80 is how that poodles for that particular deduction, the 45 elk credit does the second one 45 L also applies to new construction as well as renovations. It it’s, it’s a little bit more in depth than one 70 90, and it applies only to multifamily housing and only to low rise. So it’s three stories and lower.
Heidi:
So as I said, one 70 90 is four stories and higher on multifamily. 45 L is three stories and lower. It is a tax credit versus a deduction. And that’s a really important designation. The doc action reduces your income, which then secondarily reduces how much you pay an income tax. The tax credit is a dollar for dollar offset of actual taxes due. So the 45 out credit is a $2,000 credit per unit for the development of multi-family housing or for renovations, the renovations would have to be quite significant. So because it’s energy efficient, it would be beeping up insulation, switching out windows, new roofing really looks at ventilation. So water heaters, air conditioning units, heating air flow, a lot of those things. So 45 hours, a little harder when we deal with renovated properties. But we’re seeing most of our new construction qualify for that.
Charles:
Yeah, I would imagine. So I imagine that they’d want to contact you if they’re doing a renovation project to kind of figure out what they need to do. Cause that’s going to be a fair, very heavy lift project. If you’re going in with installations, one thing going in and changing fixtures, water fixtures, light fixtures, this kind of stuff, but it’s a whole different thing when you’re upping installation and and mechanicals. So,
Heidi:
Yep. Yep. That’s exactly right. So
Charles:
We have both passive and active investors who listened to this show. Are you able to explain a little bit about passive activity versus active activity in regards to income tax?
Heidi:
Yeah, that’s a, that’s a big one. So yeah, we talk with investors a lot about utilization and that is meaning, okay. If we do a cross study and we’re spending out $600,000 of depreciation, the big question is can I use it? And some people don’t realize that the IRS has kind of created buckets of activity. So there are some limitations to what someone can and can not use at certain times. And those are defined by rules that are called active activity versus passive activity. If you want to do a little light reading, you can Google, what is, what is the tax designation of a real estate professional? Not to be confused with being a real estate broker or having a real estate license. This is purely for tax purposes. The IRS defines who is a tax professional. And is this your primary business primary form of income or is this just kind of a secondary investment that you’re focused on? So what happens is that the determination of whether you are in fact, a real estate investor, this is your primary business, is, is the determination as to whether you can apply everything that happens on your real estate over to any other income that you might have. So, so it’s, as if we, I use the analogy of drawing a line in the sand, you know, I’m gonna take a big stick and draw this line in the sand. And on this side, this is all of my passive activity. This is stocks and bonds. I’m investing over here. I’ve invested with this real estate fund. Maybe I’d buy a building, but I’ve got a management company that manages that. And this is just cause I want a place to invest my money and grow it and see that appreciate over time. But on the other side of this line in the sand is my primary business. Let’s say I’m a doctor, I’m a lawyer. And you know, I’m doing well and I work full time and this is my primary focus. If that’s the case, the IRS will not allow any losses or depreciation on this side of the sand for, for your real estate or passive activity to cross that line and offset the income you make as a doctor or a lawyer. They, they view it separately. So, so what we look at is, is there a way to erase that line one way to do that as you are a full-time or, or at least part-time focused in real the real estate business. Another great option that we see a lot is that you have a spouse who, or is a real estate investor, because if you are married, filing jointly, and there’s an individual who is a professional of some type making a high salaried income, and you have a spouse who is in real estate, it is active for your spouse, as well as your active income and say a doctor or a lawyer. And so that all rolls together. It’s all on that side of the sand where it all will offset. So it is a, it is a kind of a story and it is a structure that we will ask about and that we will explore with some of our clients to make sure that that’s something that they’re considering. And that we’re really understanding, okay, if we buy a building, we generate this tremendous loss or depreciation value, where is that going to apply? And let’s identify if there are certain limitations and how we can offset those limitations to be able to use it.
Charles:
Interesting. Well, thank you very much for that very detailed explanation. I want a couple more questions here before we follow up. And one of them was, so you work with a lot of investors. What are you finding is really hot right now for different asset classes and where are you getting the best write-offs
Heidi:
Oh man, I like that one. Well, I should ask you, what are you investing in? Well, let me tell ya, it’s been really interesting. Big ones bonus depreciation has stemmed a ship in where some people are investing, which is really interesting. And I think it’s because as people understand how much can be reclassified or accelerated and then claimed under bonus depreciation, they’re like, okay, well I need a bunch of write-off. So what can I buy that would provide the highest write-off value in the shortest amount of time? So I have investors who will say, Hey, you know, what are you seeing? What’s, what’s the highest percentage? What, what can we look at? And you know, what’s coming back and is just incredibly hot right now, mobile home parks and self storage facilities. Good luck finding one to buy, because that would be the biggest issue. But mobile home parks, because they really don’t have a lot of structure, but the value is all land improvements, which is all 15 year property, which is all bonus. So if you buy a million dollar mobile home park and half of that is traditional land value, but the other half is all group movements. All of that becomes a write-off under bonus. So you know, a million dollar investment can provide $500,000 of ride off year one self storage, depending on the type of construction. You have metal buildings with metal partitions, all are deemed equipment. They’re really not considered real estate structures because they’re movable, you know, they’re bolted to the ground. They’re not like, you know, buildings. So depends on the type of storage, but we really see that significantly from there. Apartments and multifamily also are highly performing with that reclassification percentage because there are so many more appliances and kitchens and bathrooms and all of these different components that can be accelerated and depreciated quickly. So those are absolutely areas that we see performing very well. And, you know, I can say it’s been amazing to see the, the increase of interest and drive particularly again in the mobile home parks, manufactured, housing developments, self storage, and some of those other types of properties.
Charles:
Interesting that I self storage is very interesting because unless it’s like maybe a two story one, the regular traditional self storage complex is really are just a corrugated metal and sheet metal. You know what I mean? So with w with you working with all these investors, what mistakes do you commonly see investors make, whether it’s with taxes or just operations of their business or investments?
Heidi:
You know, a lot of times I see investors who just aren’t really savvy about the tax implications and also making the assumption that their CPA has them covered. And I think it’s easy for us to say, well, you know, I’ve worked with a CPA for the last 30 years. He’s a dear friend. He’s been a CPA forever. And unfortunately, sometimes if we’re working with a CPA who is not really savvy and they’re not sophisticated they, they can miss that. Or they just simply don’t mention it because they’re much more focused on compliance. Yes, you may be paying a much lower fee for your tax prep work. But that’s because it’s, it’s compliance there. They’re filling out the tax form and completing that for you. But there’s not a lot of consulting. There’s not a lot of guidance that’s occurring. So it’s huge to make sure that you are surrounding yourself with valuable partners that can help consult on some of these issues that understand the industry and to choose professionals that understand real estate. And that understand the best structure that understand the limitations, you know, with passive versus active and can maybe consult on ways that you can tip something to make sure that you can utilize as much as you possibly can. So those factors, as well as applying these strategies, we’ve talked about today, that if left on the table, I mean, they can cost you hundreds of thousands. I, I was speaking with an investor the other day, and we actually do a lot, a lot of people don’t realize this, but you can, you can do cost segregation on small properties. We work with single family rentals all the time. So I have an investor who happens to own about 15 single-family rental properties you know, a hundred, $250,000 each. He’s had them for many years keep paid because he, he actually sold something and cashed out. He paid over $200,000 of income tax last year you know, direct. So he, he, he did really well. He had a lot of income, but he paid $200,000 in income tax. He’s never done a cost sag. He never accelerated the depreciation. He’s done purely straight line. We looked at that and it’s, you know, if we do the cost side right now, we’re going to generate over $1.2 million of depreciation, because he also just bought his first multi-family unit. I said that between all of the single family properties, and this one will spin out over a million dollars of depreciation, which would have eliminated you from having to pay that $200,000 you paid last year, that is cash in your pocket to turn around and reinvest into another building, or do improvements to one of the buildings you have or re-invest that. So you’re continually rolling over the depreciation benefits and reinvesting that in growing your capital, instead of just kind of saying, well, you know, my CPA has got me covered. I’m taking straight line and oh, you know, I had to pay 200,000 in tax this year. That is the beauty of real estate. So those are the mistakes that we see that, you know, just don’t need to happen. It seems a little complicated, but a promise when you go through the exercise, it is much easier than you might think.
Charles:
Yeah. And the best thing is when you’re getting those K ones coming in and you see all of your, all the deductions and all of the depreciation that comes in, and you can use that against your income or your passive income, depending on where you are, but that’s really powerful. So how can our listeners learn more about you and your business, Heidi?
Heidi:
Yeah. So please, you know, I would love to have anybody reach out to me directly. We love working with investors, looking at their properties. You can contact me directly. My phone number is (801) 564-4464. I’m sure you can probably post that somewhere in the podcast. My email is H Henderson at engineered tax services. If you’ve visited our website, we’ve got a web site engineered tax services.com. If you submit something there, make sure that you heard about us on, on this podcast and would like more information. So we’d certainly love to talk with you. We do, you know, I do want to say, we will look at that initial analysis perform a detailed cost benefit analysis, free of charge so that you can see all those numbers up front and really make an educated decision. So we’re not going to charge you to kind of explore the opportunity and understand if it makes sense.
Charles:
Well, I appreciate that. I will put all the links, your email, your website into the show notes, and thank you so much for being on today, Heidi, and looking forward to connecting with you in the near future.
Heidi:
Thank you so much. It was so nice to be here. Bye bye. Bye bye.
Charles:
Hi guys! It’s Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in get involved with real estate, but you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 30 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com. Thank you.
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