Announcer:
Welcome to the Global Investors Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market. Host, Charles Carillo, combined decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now here’s your host, Charles Carillo.
Charles:
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast; I’m your host Charles Carillo. Today we have Ira Singer. He is a principal of Mosaic Construction; a firm that specializes in commercial and multifamily renovation and works with multifamily investors and owners to add value or reposition their properties. So Thank you so much for being on the show, Ira.
Ira:
You are welcome, Charles. Thanks for having me as a guest.
Charles:
So it’s great to have someone that’s on the other side of of the business, cuz most people listening to hear are owners, but give us a little bit of a background on yourself, both personally and professionally and prior to getting and starting your current construction firm. <Affirmative>.
Ira:
So I’ve been in the construction war business for 30 years. I’m a project junkie started in the window siding and roofing business, residential and, and grew quickly into other asset classes, specifically multifamily and commercial. And today we are a 17 person firm of we’re a general contractor. We work nationally. We operate three brands, Mosa construction is our company. We have a brand called design construction concepts, which is design build custom projects, typically residential. And we have a cannabis division that we started six almost seven years ago. We are doing design build of cannabis, dispensaries, cultivations, and processing labs working in 12 states on 40 plus projects to date. So professionally that’s, that’s where I land personally, fortunately been in a, a wonderful family you know, growing up with three sisters and parents and in the Chicago area, which is where I’m talking to you now from I’m in north Brook, Illinois, which is where our company is located. And I’m married for 31 years with three children of my own that are all college graduates and, and making their way in the world. So that’s a little bit about me personally and professionally.
Charles:
So what size properties, I mean, you guys are in a number of different fields. What kind of properties are you focusing on and and markets within for multifamily. So when you’re taking on projects,
Ira:
So we have existed primarily in the value add space in the replacement space and it’s really asset agnostic for us. You know, the owners that we are working with can be in the you know, BBC space or the class, a space senior or student affordable housing. We have worked with all types of asset owners and depending on the asset class will of course depend on what the investment strategy is for how they’re going to make over the asset. And so we have a, an incredible amount of experience working both interior and exterior repositioning assets coming in where an asset is, you know, on its last breath and it needs full resurrection. And then there’s, you know, projects where we’ve come in and we’re doing very specific deployments for a specific space within a building that needs conversion from storage to purpose for enhancement to the residents. And so as the builders, we’ve had quite a bit of collaborative experience with owners, designers, architects to bring the vision and the strategy from the discussion to actual execution.
Charles:
Interesting. Okay. So it’s I think like when you’re getting into large, your apartment buildings and complexes, you’re having, there’s a number of different people that are in the management portion of it. So you have, you know, the GCs like yourself, the structure company, you’re gonna have property managers in there. And then you’re also gonna have the owner that’s involved in helping or adding aid. So what is really when, when you’re doing one of these projects, what’s the role of those three different people in there are those three different groups of people and in regards to renovating that property and doing the repositioning and value ad
Ira:
That’s a great question. I’ll start at least with, with my team. So we deploy a project manager, a production coordinator and a production manager, which are both in the field and in our office to manage and communicate with trade partners and help get the project from demolition through punch list. As design builders were often in the project early on, and that is typically with the owner themselves. Once the project gets contracted, the project pretty management firm comes into play and they are key to our success. They are the ones who have, if we’re working in units or in common spaces, the property management firm be it onsite or offsite mm-hmm <affirmative> are, you know, they’re communicating to residents to let them know that their unit is going to be, you know, having windows replaced or they’re getting their kitchen remodeled. And depending on the scope of the work management is helping to move residents out of their units or move them back in.
Ira:
And so the property manager for us, and in some cases, the onsite maintenance person or the head of the building, you know, they have a bunch of different titles, but it’s anyone who is centric to the building we’re working on. They have a key role in communicating the residents and helping us work through the project from schedule, from impact of the residents. Safety is a big thing if we’re working and you know, where they can and where residents can and cannot go. So having a great property manager committed to good communication and understanding the impact that a construction project has at the asset is a huge help. The owner is in a perfect world. The owner is heavy involved in the beginning as they are bidding, as they are selecting their contract, helping with finishes allowing us to understand their strategy, what has been pitfalls for them in hiring contractors in the past.
Ira:
So we can understand, you know, some, some hot issues as to what to avoid. And then when the project launches, depending on their role in running the asset, we would prefer that the owner moves to the side because they’re better suited to be in place to find deals. Research deals do due diligence on other stuff. If they have a trusted construction partner in place, and we have been with them through the bidding, through the product selection, through the schedule impact, you know, understanding the investment strategy and there’s trust between the owner and the high contractor, we would prefer that they go and do those things that owners do so well, which is go find more assets so we can be partners again and another construction opportunity.
Charles:
Interesting. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So in the beginning, it’s really when the owner’s gonna be more hands on and getting everything set and then figuring out the scope of the actual repositioning. Cause I imagine when you go into some of these units you know, when we’ve walked in, before we, we grade ’em and kind of like a 1, 2, 3 of with our property managers quickly and have an idea of what type of renovation, because you’ll have, it’s very odd, I guess you would go into a complex and nothing’s been renovated, you’ll have some units, I think usually that have been renovated. So some that are like, oh my God, this guy’s been here since like the seventies. And then it’s like in there’s everything in between. And so it’s kind of like figuring out, so obviously, so you can do your pricing, but obviously the main thing is that you’re not gonna be back into that unit probably for years. So knowing exactly what’s in, you know, unit 32 and then, so when you’re going back into it, you go, oh wow, this person’s moving out. Now, this is a very heavy value ad prop, you know unit. We have to make sure that our construction is on board with us and kind of knowing what we’re doing, right.
Ira:
A hundred percent you know, the, the proof of concept theory, you know, you have four units that have been taken to the next level of seven and they’re getting those rents. And so the feeling is, well, they prove their concept. And let’s took take a look at the other 66 and what’s the schedule and what’s the cost and are the finishes in the first four that are garnering rent increases the same finishes that we wanna do. And so the earlier you bring in the contractor, especially a design builder like us, mm. Who can look at the asset sit from the, see it from the owner’s lens, see it from what’s the strategy. Is it a proof of concept, sell it because you can, you know, turn the property or is it a long term hold? Which means almost everything in the asset needs to be looked at for how it’s life expectancy for its efficiency, for its maintenance free and for its overall value, because it’s not just the inside units that matter in multifamily, curb peel, exterior maintenance free, depending on your climate, your efficiency of your windows, your doors, how watertight your roof and your gutters are then moving into the interior.
Ira:
Are your corridors bright? Are the floor, you know, is flooring maintenance free? What are your units like? So there’s a whole bunch of things that as contractors we can bring to the table, not the least of which is speed to market. Yeah. Which is almost like a unicorn in today’s market, where product is delayed. Contractors are busy. I work with roughly 150 different trade partners companies because of our regional work and everyone that we work with to try and get them into our schedule. And it’s very much like a production. There’s this trade, then there’s that trade. Then there’s this trade then there’s that trade. If we’re doing unit turns and there’s demolition to rough framing, cause some walls are moving and plumbing and electric and flooring and dry eyewall. Those are all different trade partners that come in and do their specific task and we have to keep them in a schedule. And so the project manager is really, really key to the schedule being held to because at the end of the day, you, as the owner are much, your concern is when is the unit coming back online? When is the project finished? So my residents aren’t bothered or so I can put a new renter into an upgraded unit and collect a higher re
Charles:
Yeah, no, that’s perfect. That’s exactly what <laugh>, that’s exactly what the underwriters are looking for and what the owners and all are looking to get that information from. So what is your advice for that are evaluating and hiring contractors? What would you suggest and whether this is, you know, subcontractors, if it’s a smaller project, maybe a small multifamily that they’re G seeing themself, or if it’s a larger project like a typical one that you’re working on, what should that owner be looking at for GCs and subs and how do, how do you really evaluate one? Other than getting references, I guess, or referrals from other investors?
Ira:
I would say the best barometer for a project and how you go out and hire a contractor is experience for sure. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> the speed to market cannot be ignored because you can have the best contractor, but at the end of the day, so busy that they can’t get to your project, that doesn’t help you. And really when you’re talking about projects, if it’s, you know, working directly with the sub where the owner is going to GC the project, because it’s only one sub, so you’re, you’re painting units that you’re painting the exterior, you’re replacing gutters. Once you start to get into two, three at the, at the minimum, but when you have three trades that need to be involved in a project under one contract, it really does make sense to work with an experienced multi-family general contractor, because there are ways to condense the schedule.
Ira:
A good general contractor is going to figure out a way to start the project, build the schedule. But as we work through a progression of the same thing, cuz a multifamily, there might be six different unit types, but once you work through the unit and you get your feet under, you speed should pick up. And so you really wanna have an experience factor, a design builder who can help with value engineering. At the end of the day, a lot of owners hire architects, go out bid and then the numbers come in and they’re not workable for what your investment strategy is. And so a design bill where the contractor is involved early to help with product selection, constructability pre budgeting. So you know that you’re gonna land where you are hoping to land for getting change orders for getting hidden conditions, just in terms of building a budget that can be stuck to the, the experience of a design builder and multifamily cannot be understated.
Charles:
Yeah, I would imagine. So what are common mistakes? You see some of the owners making and obviously one of the main one you just said that if they have three trades or more underneath you know, one project that they should be looking for GC, what do you, what other stakes do you see other owners making when it comes to whether it’s estimating costs or whether it’s actually executing the the the renovations.
Ira:
My experience is such that working early with an owner is really what sets up up the asset for success. And so some of the things that I think mistakes are made is that, you know, they hire an architect because there is a substantive project that’s gotta happen. And then it goes out forbid and they hire low bidder and low bidder is not always the right answer. It, it can be, but the per horrific triangle of lowest bidder best quality work and on schedule is like a triangle that doesn’t necessarily exist in construction. If you want, you know, the schedule to stay on pace, you may have to spend more money to hire somebody who has more horses. And the, and the cost is more expensive where owners, I think, you know, fantasize is that I can buy it for this, do it in this timeframe and get the rent that I expect.
Ira:
And, you know, the proof of concept is one thing. Yeah. Complete asset makeover from C to B, that’s a major investment that doesn’t happen with, you know, 10, 20, a hundred thousand dollars that typically happens with several hundred thousand dollars. And sometimes depending on how many units, millions, and when you’re talking about spending millions of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars in multifamily, you better pick the right horse to, you know, come in, evaluate budget, set up schedule, have the right insurances be a good communicator, dedicate somebody to the project to manage it. So your property manager, isn’t managing, so your director of maintenance, isn’t managing it. And so the owner isn’t, isn’t involved at a level beyond, hopefully just receiving the monthly billing packet where progress photos are sent daily to show the progress. Okay. And at the, at the end of the month, it’s time to bill, the owner is comfortable, you know, approving the invoicing cuz they have seen the progress.
Ira:
So I, I just think that relationships matter with me to my trades, with me, to my clients communication is critically important, you know, excellent communication hall, like world class communication for what happens daily in the project, not if something bad goes on and it doesn’t get told if something bad goes on, we find something or the schedule is, is delayed or the product didn’t get, or it came broken, good communication, timely communication. You know, I didn’t make the, if it comes off the pallet and we open the boxes and six of the pieces are broken, you know, I have to deal with that. And the owner or the property management firm is involved in that. So I’m, I’m a big believer in, you know, excellent communication daily client updates, following rules and policies. You know, the are all things that are gonna help the project be a good experience where a contractor will be rehired.
Ira:
We can all tell stories. Why don’t you Charles tell us stories of hiring bad contractors and all the, you know, all the, the poor things that you had to experience and endure because of that, you know, we’ve certainly had projects that have been challenges, but we feel we’re partners to our clients. We want to tell them everything transparently. We don’t have to show ’em how the sausage is made entirely, but we certainly aren’t gonna be hiding things. If there are problems on the project that were, you know, expected to go one way and they’re going another way. So I’m, I’m just I’m gonna keep it simple, stupid kind of guy cuz construction all by itself is complicated. So the simpler, we can keep it the better. Yeah.
Charles:
The, the communication, I know you’ve, you’ve made it a huge point and that is a huge point when I’ve had it, because the lack of it has added more stress to our team and we’re like, well, what is really going on over there? And now it takes people away from, like you said the actual owner, the normal owner roles, which should be fine, more properties after a, a project is in process of renovation and repositioning. But so when should an owner be reaching out to a company like yours, should they is it something like, Hey, we’ve got something under LOI, we’ve got something under contract or, Hey, we’re interested in buying in this area and we wanna buy an 80 to 120 unit property. And this is what we’re are looking for.
Ira:
I would say it’s owner dependent. Some, some owners want to bring the contractor in when the deal is under contract and, and they’ve spent all their time, you know, going through the numbers and doing the rent role and looking at, you know, looking at a photo, scroll, visiting the property and because they own X amount of, of units, they’re comfortable with their own story to not have somebody come in early. And I’m not there to argue that point. My experience tells me that my eyes, my nose is different when I’m on a project, I’m smelling something that doesn gonna smell, right. I’m looking up and seeing a, a flashing detail. I’m seeing a, a, a, a floor that doesn’t feel good underfoot. And so, you know, we are more in the weeds on the details specific to what, what would be. So wouldn’t it be great that for me to come early, you’re entertaining an offer to, to make an offer.
Ira:
You’ve got an idea as to what you think you can get it for. You have an idea as to what you think you’re budgeting and what it’s gonna represent. And you tell that to the contractor and I come out and I’m like, you know what? That part that you told me, that makes a lot of sense, but did you go over there? Did you see? And I’m not just seeing it on one building, I’m seeing it on those three buildings. And my experience tells me that that could be a, B or C wouldn’t an owner like to know those things by the eyes and experience of a, of a multifamily general contractor on the rehab side. Because in multifamily, it’s never just one time of an oops. It’s one times 30 in its oops. And now it’s a fairly decent sized number. And so the earlier that we can be there as an advocate, as a trusted resource to look and vet, I don’t wanna, you know, I’m not saying I wouldn’t go to every single one, but at the, at some point you’re entertaining three, you get down to the final two and before you make the LOI, wouldn’t it make sense to have construction eyes on the project to make that what you’re about to deploy and money actually can fit what you are hoping to accomplish.
Charles:
Yeah. It’s also, I think for owners too, it’s something, especially when there’s passive investors in these deals, it’s something else that now I can say, Hey, here’s a report from our property manager that we’re gonna be using on this project. And now here’s our, and here’s our notes from our construction company. And now it’s like, okay, there’s really minimal that could slip through these cracks of these three groups reviewing something. And I think that just kind of gives it a little bit more of a concrete estimate of what kind of work needs to be done there. So I’m all on board with what you’re saying of bringing in P people that are, have specialties and especially yours in in all different types of trades and in managing them
Ira:
So well. And to your point about the variety of multifamily asset classes that exist, your listeners are involved in, you know, market rate, C2, B affordable senior, you know, there’s so many different things. So each asset and asset class and geography and investment strategy determines what makes sense to put into that asset what’s needed. You know, if you’re, so the, the Reno is not just one size fits all in a box. So I did it over at that asset. It’s kind of the same. So we’re just gonna do the same plug and play for this cuz that worked over there. Well, yes, that’s got a good chance of hitting the mark, but you know, a little tweak here, a little tweak there from product to, you know, what area of the asset, what what’s, let’s triage, the property what’s urgent, what’s midterm what’s wanna have, but it’s more long term as, and how does that meld into the investment strategy?
Ira:
Again, your listeners being passive investors, in some cases they don’t have, they’re not at the front line of the decisions they’re, they’re investing in a group who has historically done well on returns for them. And they’re learning through, you know, the, the construction stories that I’m telling, but it doesn’t, they’re not necessarily able to ask those questions if they are the primary general partner and they’re leading the charge to take down the asset. These are the things that have to be discussed early on as far as cost of improvement, what’s the right improvement. What’s the order of the improvement. What’s the strategy long term hold. So you know, just trying to add as much value to your listeners that it’s not one size fits all based on asset class geography, investment strategy.
Charles:
So I wanna talk about like some of the upgrades and what the construction person can bring, because we see a lot of amenities being added. I remember like decades ago, the, the dog park was a huge amenity right. Being added it. And now if you walk in some of them, I mean, they’ve got coffee rooms and coffee. And so what are, what are you seeing throughout the multifamily space and what are the most common trends and amenities that you see being added or updated in projects? You’re, you’re a part of,
Ira:
I’m only gonna say, you know, it’s asset class dependent because it is, you know, there’s, you’re not necessarily putting in a world class fitness center in workforce housing unit, a there isn’t the space for it B the hours of, you know, some of the third shift time that, that type of asset for those residents, the, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. There are things that are universal, like world class wifi the last year and a half has proven you know, it it’s, it’s unexpected, even though we’re all serious understanding today of what it meant to live through the pandemic. I don’t think anyone forecasted the amount of time that we would be spending at home because of things shut down, but also because our employers sent us home for work. And so wifi matters. It matters for, you know, a certain demographic of age to be able to be connected to their, to their world.
Ira:
But as far as being able to plug in and get your work done not just in your unit. So as you talk about what are some amenities, having alternate spaces within the asset where someone can go to work, they can reserve it either on a map or on a signup sheet where there is space for working where you don’t have to be in your unit because the, you know, there’s just the, the ability to be productive at work. A lot of the units the assets that we’ve worked on, they are creating space. That is a workspace. And, you know, yes, there’s always like a little business center. We’re not talking about a business center. We’re not talking about a place to print, you know, as a resident and print a couple of things, we’re talking about an ability to shut a door, be reserved in a space and call that your workspace, because that is gonna help you be more productive versus at home, the kids are home, they’re learning at home and the noise and you can’t get your job done.
Ira:
So that is one thing that we have seen over the course of the last year, as people are planning. Certainly, you know, you talk about dog parks, it’s way beyond dog parks. At this point, mm-hmm, <affirmative> pets are also a very, very important component of people’s lives. And so washing stations you know, social setups where they are literally having like friend groups. So there’s an app, you know, there’s all kinds of technology that really helps a, an asset run smoother. The, I think one of the things from an owner’s lens that makes sense is how do you build the community within your multi-family community itself? How do you build of communities where people feel valuable? They feel value in being to live there because they’ve got nine friends in their dog group because the asset put a dog group together. And so they’re going for walks there.
Ira:
You know, there are feeding stations, there are washing stations. Those are things that we’ve seen bike rooms or recreational spaces are also critically important. Again, maybe amplified because of the work from home. And so getting out, if you live in a climate that allows you to bike, you know, more than where I live in Chicago, it’s like a, you know, nice season is a four month season in the south. If, you know, if you have a bike room, people own bikes, you know, secure a washing station, a little pump area and you can have, depending on the size of the asset, hundreds cannot ignore the units. The units are kind of, you know, everyone focuses their energy that regardless of asset class you know, be it design pieces which is smart switches, smart locks coloring, which would be, you know, a gray, very popular quartz as a may maintenance, free, beautiful countertop product.
Ira:
I think most units that are being renovated today are seeing a luxury vinyl tile, which is the plank wood flooring that looks like wood, but it’s not the cost of wood. It’s it’s got a co component. So you have some noise attenuation and some comfort underfoot. That is something that we’re seeing really across the board, regardless of asset class. And then things like unsexy, windows, doors, roofs, gutters maintenance, free exteriors. So the value of the asset is starting at the outside with curb appeal. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and continuing for the owner with no maintenance with better efficiencies with long term warranties. So their, to I and ownership of the asset doesn’t have a constant for caulking, for glass replacement for other repairs.
Charles:
Interesting. Yeah, it’s funny because I remember when after graduating college people going to New York city, they would tell me the biggest things they were looking for for amenities was the bike room. The bike room was the big thing, cuz the apartments are so small and they were telling bike room. And then if you had the money, you’d go for the, the building with the doorman. But interesting. What are some great ways for owners to increase their NOI that have you found?
Ira:
So, you know, operating, I think are really where the owner has gotta dial that in and that’s sometimes not related to the construction side of things. It could be, you know, their their cable, their phone their, their staff, you know, how lean is their staff from a construction point of view because it’s multiples being able to buy things smartly at a reduced cost. You know, even if it’s a long term rental plan buying the materials upfront, assuming you have the space at the site to put it where it can be safeguarded, you know, so you’re buying things smarter, upfront, even if the construction is for long term. I, I forgot one thing as far as an asset makeover, which is asset across all of them, and that is package rooms. We have installed package rooms because of the, again, people being at home spending is, and just look at Amazon stock spending is out the out the world.
Ira:
And so having the ability to manage the amount of packages that come in, whether you’re your own door with eight units and the ma you know, ups is coming, or you are a property that has door person, and you have community spaces converting some space to accommodate packages. We’ve installed package lockers, which are incredibly smart technology where the packages are delivered and the resident gets a email to come down in this package location, and this locker location put in this code and you can get your package. So it’s secure it, doesn’t leverage the property management team to have to manage the packages. That is a, that is an, an amenity that all owners should consider creating some type of package space to manage the amount of packages that come in. Yeah. So you know, return on investment again, strategy wise. It’s how long are you owning it?
Ira:
What’s your play? How, what are you buying? Are you buying the value add? And you have to just prove the concept or are you buying the value add to hold it for 15 years and you get to benefit for all of those years of return on investment because you proved your concept and you were the one that benefited for the rent. So I think it depends on the investment strategy is so key as to how much money will be invested and what the upside of that investment results in, you know, for your ultimately, you know, for your, your NOI.
Charles:
Interesting. Okay. Well over we’re finishing up here. I just a couple questions here. What do you think are the main factors that have contributed to your success? IRA?
Ira:
I would say relationships, Charles you know, we are between our trade partners, our team here at mosaic, our clients, and just, you know, the people that are outside of my business world, but, you know, help support me in my day to day of being IRA. You know, the dad IRA, the hu been IRA, the sun relationships are so incredibly important. It’s probably the most valued piece of what we have built. We don’t wear tool belts as a general contractor. We don’t employ direct labor. We employ people that effectuate construction and so processes and proceed really matter to normalize and effectuate the construction that we do. And so between the relationships that we have, the procedures that we have, the reputation that we are looking to continue to maintain and Excel you know, good communication, good processes, being a standup person you know, it’s kind of like what I learned in kindergarten, tell the truth, be a good friend.
Ira:
You know, those are, those are very simple things and the world is very complicated. And so to have a a set of actions that we, our guide in business, which is relationship building, closing the loop on open items anticipating needs that help you know, forecast what’s going to come. Those are all things doing it the right way. It’s just what we’re about. It’s how at mosaic construction, it all comes together for what’s important to us and our clients. And so those are, you know, some of the things that I think have contributed to my success in business.
Charles:
Yeah. I couldn’t I can’t agree more, the relationships are so important in business, but also, especially in commercial real estate. So how can our listeners learn more about you and your business?
Ira:
Well, the easiest thing to do is to, you know, find us at our websites which is mosaic construction.net. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> the other brands I spoke of earlier design construction concepts and cannabis facility construction are linked at that site because it’s just brands that we owned, cuz you know, if you’re a multifamily owner operator and you went to my site and saw a bunch of cannabis dispensaries on the, you you’d wonder if you landed at the right site. And so to, to segment all the types of work that we do, the three brands really help. You can certainly pick up the phone. I would, you know, ask if you’re considering looking at an asset and you have questions, a phone call is a great initial step. You know, it can be reached at our office which is, you know, on the website email is of course on the website. I’d love to talk to any of your listeners and, you know, be a resource as they are considering a project.
Charles:
Yeah. And yeah, when you’re building out your team, people that are listening just make sure that you know, your construction’s a huge part of that, just like your property manager, lending everything else. So start the conversation early and they can assist you through the whole acquisition process. So we thank you so much for coming on IRA. I will put links to your company, into the show notes and looking forward to connecting with you in the near future. It was
Ira:
A lot of fun. Charles covered a lot of good stuff. Hope your listeners got some value out of what we talked about and thank you very much.
Charles:
Hi guys! It’s Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in get involved with real estate, but you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 30 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com. Thank you.
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