GI185: How to Vet Real Estate Syndicators with Kenneth Gee

GI185: How to Vet Real Estate Syndicators with Kenneth Gee

Ken Gee has more than 24 years of significant real estate, banking, private equity transaction and principal investing experience. He is the managing partner of KRI Partners; a firm that has owned and/or managed more than 15,000 apartment units with properties ranging from 20 units to over 750 units.

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Announcer:
Welcome to the Global Investor Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market. Host Charles Carillo combines decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now, here’s your host, Charles Carillo.

Charles:
Do you have money sitting in the stock market? And you’re worried about it or worse. You have money sitting at the bank, not keeping up with inflation. My name is Charles Carillo, founder and managing partner of Harborside Partners. And since 2006, I’ve been investing my money and my family’s money into income producing properties. These are real assets, real properties with real addresses that produce real cash flow. At Harborside Partners, we provide passive investors who love real estate with a turnkey investing solution. If you want to put your money to work in real estate, but can’t find deals, don’t have the time to get funding in. The last thing that productive people want to do is manage real estate. We find the deals. We fund the deals and we manage the tenants, the termites and the properties. Partner with us at investwithharborside.com. That’s investwithharborside.com. Go to investwithharborside.com. If you love real estate, you like the idea of passive income and believe that income producing properties will appreciate over time. Go to investwithharborside.com. That’s investwithharborside.com.

Charles:
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast; I’m your host Charles Carillo. Today we have Ken Gee. He has more than 24 years of significant real estate, banking, private equity transaction and principal investing experience. He is the managing partner of KRI Partners; a firm that has owned and/or managed more than 15,000 apartment units with properties ranging from 20 units to over 750 units. So thank you so much for being on the show, Ken.

Ken:
So glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Charles:
So it’s great. You have so much, you have so much experience prior to getting into real estate when I was reading over your bio, can you give us a little brief background on yourself, both personally and professionally, prior being involved in your current business in real estate investing?

Ken:
Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in Toledo, Ohio. Went to University of Toledo, got my undergrad in finance then got a job as with a bank in Cleveland commercial lender. I spent five years as a commercial lender. I did all, all, all types of lending in, in the banking arena. While working for the bank, I was getting my master’s degree at Case Western Reserve at night in Cleveland. And that led me to an accounting career where then I moved to Deloitte for seven years, where I spent seven years there in their tax side doing either, you know, starting out federal compliance. Then, then you, you get get into the fund stuff, the tax planning, and then a ton of m and a work and mo what we call multi-jurisdictional tax planning. So it’s state and local tax planning, some international stuff.

Ken:
Oh, and and then it was while I was there that I started to get into real estate. So you know, when I was at the bank, all my customers had real estate and were, we’re doing very well with it. Then I moved to Deloitte and the Cleveland office, and Deloitte had a huge real estate practice. And of course all those people knowing names that you would know, they’re household names that that started in Cleveland. And so all these people were just making a ton of money in real estate. And I said, you know what, I, I need to figure this out mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and go do it. And then and then we started buying assets in Cleveland and it eventually moved everything that we do down to Florida now.

Charles:
Nice. So for your first real estate investment, how did you start off? What was your first, I guess you’d say, strategy when you were dipping your toe into real estate investing back, I guess in the nineties?

Ken:
Yeah, good question. So it, it took me about a year and a half to, I, I’m really careful, deliberate guy. And I really wanted to learn. I’m right. You can think of an accountant wanting to be very structured, right? So I spent a year and a half going to apartment association meetings and you know, back then there were no podcasts like this. There weren’t very many seminar courses offered. It was really just trying to figure it out. So then I finally was ready to go and I thought, okay, what am I gonna buy? Am I gonna buy a single a double? Well, I, interestingly, by necessity, I had to buy something big enough that I could have somebody on site Yeah. Helping me with the work. Cuz if you know anything about accountants, they work really hard, right? They don’t have a lot of spare time.

Ken:
And there was no way I was gonna be able to go there and show apartments. So I settled on a 28 unit building in a part of Cleveland called Shaker Square. And I had a part-time lady, wonderful lady who helped me show the apartments change light bulbs, keep the grounds clean and things like that. So that first complex you know, 28 units, I call it a complex, is a small building. But that was why I bought the first thing that I bought. And I, you know, I settled on multi-family really, because, you know, I just, multi-family just seemed safe to me, right? In our world, you can never use the word safe really. But you know, it was the safest asset class I could find to invest in.

Charles:
Hmm. Awesome. So where you’ve gone from there to where you are now, what’s your firm’s current investment strategy and criteria? I may, I, I guess it’s mainly down in the southeast and Florida, is that correct? You’re in Tampa? Yeah.

Ken:
Yeah. We’re about 10 or 15 years ago, I said, okay, I can make, if I can make money in Cleveland, it’s a tough market, right? The macroeconomics w we’re not really favorable because people generally are leaving Cleveland. I said, man, I wonder what, how, what would it be like if I could do this in a really growth market? So 10 or 15 years ago, I said, all right, we’re gonna go down to Florida. And I started the process of, you know, getting boots on the ground, building credibility with brokers and so on and so forth. And so all during our, our life as, as a business, we’ve always been value add investors mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, and, you know, people use that word all the time. It, it means a lot of different things. But basically we like to find assets that we think have upside.

Ken:
Now, how do you get there? You either gotta manage ’em better or you make physical improvements, whatever the, whatever the case may be, somehow there’s some upside. We’ve never really bought with the idea, okay, we’re just gonna hold this thing forever and let inflation let us make money. Right? I mean, it helps that, that, that you have inflation or rising prices on your, you know, as a tailwind, but that’s not what we do. Right? We want to be able to add value to that property and make it worth more. And that’s why our investors have earned you know, considerable returns on the investments that we’ve made.

Charles:
Nice. So after repositioning thousands of multi-family units, what are some of the steps investors should follow when they are renovating an apartment complex or building any type of multi-family property?

Ken:
Yeah, that’s a really good question. So, what I always tell people, the first three things have really nothing to do with the actual renovation. The first thing you have to do, and I know that’s probably not what you expected to hear, but the first thing you need to do is do a really good in-depth market study. You wanna understand the market of apartments that you’re, you’re gonna play in, that you’re gonna compete in. And I generally have people put the market into three buckets, top tier, middle tier, lower tier, figure out where your property is now in that stack as if you’re a renter, and then where you’re gonna take it. And then figure out based on the competition, where you’re at now and, and the next set above you, how do you fit into that competitive stack? How is whatever you’re gonna do gonna put you in a new place?

Ken:
And really make sure you understand that. So that’s really step one and it’s probably one of the most important. The second thing you wanna do is determine your budget, right? Figure out what you think you need to spend. Don’t be afraid to make that budget dynamic. That budget’s gonna change over and over again because every day, every month, every whatever, you’re going to learn more about that property. Yeah. What you don’t want to do is force yourself into a budget, a plan that you derived, you know, 60 days before you took title to the property, really generally a bad idea. The next thing I want people to do is wait 30, 60, 90 days before they start, right? I tell people to sit on your hands for a minute. You don’t have to do it for a long time, but once you take over the property, you’re gonna learn some things that you probably didn’t know before.

Ken:
Right? It’s not necessarily the sellers hiding things from you, it is just, you know, some sellers own so many properties, they don’t know everything about every property. Yeah. So you want to get to know the property because if you need to reallocate some funds to something that you didn’t know about, wouldn’t you rather know that before you spend all your money? Yeah. At least I would. So that’s why I like people this sit on your hands for a period of time. Some people are more risk averse than others, so they like to sit on it for 36, you know, 90 days. I, I don’t think you need to do 90 generally, but some period you’ve gotta sit there and just learn what’s going on. Then as you renovate, use an outside in approach, right? Start with curb appeal and you’re work your way in. Just imagine if you’re a prospect that’s going to live at that property or consider your property and you wanna make sure that that experience is awesome all the way in to, to the amenity package and so on.

Ken:
And then go inside the units and make sure that, that they’re nice. So always follow an outside in approach. Believe it or not, I see a lot of people try an inside out approach and it’s really hard because you can’t get the, you can’t get the resident to the front door cuz it doesn’t look good on the outside. And if you can’t get ’em to the front door, you can’t show ’em all the really cool things you did inside the apartment. So some that’s not a lot of people make that mistake, but some do. And then finally, I think I talked about this a little bit, just constantly reassess your plan because market’s changing. Things are changing, prices are changing. You might learn, Hey, you know what? I don’t have to do all this work. I think I could still get the same rents and spend half as much money.

Ken:
Right. Be open to those possibilities and try it and see what happens. And you know, what I find happens, especially people new in the business, they feel like they will lose their investors’ confidence if they change the plan because they’re concerned that their investors think why you should have known this upfront. Why, why, why are you changing the plan now? Right? You, you waited until I gave your money and now you’re changing the plan <laugh>. But the reality of it is we’re in a dynamic environment, right? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, think about the pandemic. I mean, you had to make a lot of changes to your business plan Yeah. In order to get through a pandemic. And if you would’ve stayed focused and not changed your plan and been very rigid, that would’ve probably not been a good move for you and for your investors.

Charles:
Yeah. I like that about you’re not knowing everything about the property. Cause I always call it like the initial stabilization period when you get into it. Cuz there’s, there’s tons of deferred maintenance that you will find out about, oh, most likely from your tenants letting you know of little things mm-hmm. That were never taken care of by the seller. Yes sir. For one reason or another. I mean, it’s another property manager they’re leaving. They’re probably not too interested in making sure your property is in perfect condition at the time of resale. So I love that because you, you keep on finding new things out and it always happens. You just have to put, we’ve realized it’s just more money in reserve and when you’re starting because there’s just gonna be small things that come up and not that you’re gonna burn a you know, an eight figure deal or something on this, but it’s something that you have to be aware of going forward. Not that you’re gonna retrade just that you know, hey, this has to be done or this wasn’t taken care of. So that’s that’s a lot of great information. Have your, what is your thought with your buying existing product and today prices are going so high, you see a lot of, I guess you would say value add syndicators. Now going into ground up development, what is your thought on buying existing product versus ground up development?

Ken:
Yeah, what I think you’re referring to is it, you know, people are starting to pay the same cap rates for value add stuff that they would buy for a brand new asset. And, you know I, you know, I don’t here here’s, we like to buy existing product because you’re, you’re through all of the, the build process, right? And I can position my property then below the top of the market because what happens when, when economies do turn, I mean, it, it affects everybody. It, it affects multi-family far less than it does any other real estate asset class. But what generally happens is PE is people will reach down and pull the resident, the tenants up from the lower level. So the top guys try to pull up from the b plus guys. And the b b guys try to find the B minus guys.

Ken:
And it’s a big, I call it the sucking of, from the bottom right. They kind of suck the tenants up from the bottom. So I I, I don’t, at the very, very top, I don’t want to be the price leader in a, in an any market. Yeah. Because there’s so many reasons for people to not wanna be in that environment. Most of the people, like in Florida, there’s a thousand people moving into Florida every day. Not a thousand people are able to afford 3, 4, 5, $6,000 a month rents. Most of those people, maybe 70% are just ordinary people and they need ordinary housing. They want a nice place to live. So if I play in that market, I, I set myself up for the biggest demand. And guess what? There’s no new supply. Yeah. There’s no new supply in that, in that b plus a minus market. All the new supply is coming in at a plus and a plus plus and plus, plus plus. And yeah. You know, it’s really nice stuff. So it, it always has always put me in the best situation that I can be in. Now if I’ll find, if I find a very new asset that I think there’s a lot of upside, of course we’d still, we’d still do it. But you know, that’s kind of hard to find <laugh> as most people that build are pretty pretty sharp and they’re keeping their eye on rents.

Charles:
Yeah, I like that too. Cuz now you have a moat around your business, which is kind of insulating you from anything new out there because people like, oh, there’s new, there’s new inventory coming on, there’s new product. Well yeah, but it’s $500 more a month than mine. So, you know, that’s a lot of money for anybody. And I think that’s you know, it’s a whole different client they’re getting. And then also if there’s a pullback, I always think that like, you know, I had a mentor tell me this years back that when someone, when someone like loses a job or has something to shake up economically, financially in their household they really get hit. They don’t just get like a little brush. You know what I mean? Yeah. So they’re really dropping. You’re not just like, oh, I’m gonna go a to a minus.

Charles:
It’s really like, I’m going a to like B minus, you know what I mean? Or something like this back into it. And it’s just, it’s just how it works. And I’ve had it a number of times when I self-managed properties as well seeing it firsthand. So yeah. That’s great. I understand that. So what, what about you guys are vertically inter integrated and you do a lot of management, tens of thousands of units you’ve done before or you’ve owned as well. What are some pros and cons of being vertically integrated and how does that, you know, what, how does that benefit you and your investors?

Ken:
Yeah, so we’re vertically integrated because I believe there’s two parts to any deal. One is the deal, the second is the execut execution or implementation of that business plan. And by being vertically integrated, we’re, you know, we’ve been doing this for a really long time, we can push down knowledge to the property managers all the way down to the maintenance guys that most third party management companies don’t do the traditional property management model. If you show up at the property and you say to the property manager who’s the owner, what is his strategic objective for the property? They probably don’t know.

Charles:
Yeah.

Ken:
They probably don’t. Cuz it’s just never shared. In our world, because we’re vertically integrated, we have those very transparent open discussions. Hey, here’s the plan, here’s what we’re trying to do because I want everybody in the organization all the way up and down that chain to be making decisions that are consistent with what we’re trying to accomplish with that property. And the best way to do that is to tell them what you’re trying to do. Right. It kind of makes sense. So I’ve always believed in e execution. Now having said that, we do third party management as well, and we bring that same flavor of management to our third party engagements, right. Where we share with the property manager, this is what your owner, your, your client, our client is trying to do with this property. It’s our job to get it there.

Charles:
Hmm. Interesting. so over for investing for so many decades, you’ve been through couple different pullbacks mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, how can real estate investors prepare for a pullback? And I mean in multi-family or other asset classes that you’ve invested into?

Ken:
Yeah. The number one thing that I have found is get good assets in good neighborhoods.

Charles:
Hmm. Yeah.

Ken:
The number one thing if you look, just look at the pandemic if you had a property in a really tough area, it suffered in a really big way. If you had a property in an area that had a very non-diverse employment base, right? Like maybe is located next to Disney, for example, right? Well, that, that property had some tough times, right? I mean, it’s through it now, but the, I always start with neighborhood and quality of the asset because no matter what, one of the reasons we’re in multi-family and we don’t spend time in office and all these other asset classes is because everybody needs a place to live. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, everybody does. I, I can’t figure out a way to change that. Right. It, if it changes, that means you and I aren’t worried about losing a few dollars of our investment, right.

Ken:
If we don’t need a place to live anymore, that means we got huge, huge problems. And they go way above and beyond money. So that’s why I like multi-family because it, people are always gonna need the place to live. And usually in these pullbacks what happens, the the roughest thing is, you know, boyfriend girlfriend move in together, kids move back in with parents, things like that. But it’s not, it’s not like what’s happening in retail right now or in office space where there’s significant contraction. Right. It’s, it’s just not happening. It’s there, but it’s, it’s not nearly as exaggerated.

Charles:
Yeah, no, it’s it’s definitely, that’s definitely true. How should potential passive real estate investors vet in an investment firm that they’re planning on investing with?

Ken:
Yeah, really good question. And number, there’s a lot you can do. Number one look for experience, right? Make sure that whoever you’re gonna invest with has experience and it’s been there, done that, right? So we are, we’re fortunate, we’ve been around for 24 years, so that means I saw oh 8, 0 9, that means I saw the pandemic. That means I’ve seen other pullbacks and you learn a lot <laugh> as a company going through those. So you’re able to apply those experiences to the next thing, whatever the next thing is, we don’t know what’s around the corner, right? We know something’s gonna happen, we just don’t know what it’s gonna be. And you wanna make sure that senior management team that’s in charge of that property has the necessary experience to figure out how to navigate whatever waters are lie ahead. So experience, track record I think is really important.

Ken:
Something that I talk about a lot I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the site called Vervet, V E R I V E S t. I love that site. We’re on that site. It is complete transparency for sponsors. They have vetted our entire 23 plus years of track record. You can see every deal they’ve, I’ve had to send them settlement statements in bank statements and just everything you can imagine. And they’ve done a full background check on us. So when you get sites like that, that help you vet sponsors, I think that’s really important because transparency is, is really important, right? You wanna know that that track record is what he said it was, right? Yeah. Somebody’s looked under the hood for you because most individual investors, they won’t look through, you know, 16, 17 deals and look at settlement.

Ken:
They just won’t do that. Yeah. And I don’t blame ’em, I wouldn’t want to either. That’s a lot of work. Right? Right. So track record experience and transparency with, with the vetting. What what are common mistakes you see real estate investors make? Yeah, that’s well, there’s a number <laugh>, I, I get to benefit because we do a lot of third party management. I get to see a lot of new people in the business. So the number one mistake that people make is they don’t take the time to really roll up their sleeves and do the work. Now, that doesn’t mean that they have to go change the toilet. That’s not what I mean. But I mean, really do a rent survey, go on the internet, find out where exactly all the competing properties are, look at what their rents are. Mm-Hmm. Then drive down there in your car and then go visit those properties, right.

Ken:
And figure out what the neighborhood really feels like. Then on the underwriting side, go figure out how, what should the p and l look like when you’re gonna operate the property going forward? They usually don’t wanna do that work. And so what they do for some reason is they like to offload that onto other people. We have people that ask us all the time, will you underwrite this property for me? And I, and first of all, we don’t have time to under, I mean, we have so many people approaching us with that question, but most importantly, you’re the one that’s gonna sit in front of an investor in theory and ask them for money. And you, you’ve gotta, with some confidence understand exactly what all those numbers mean, how they got there. And in our business, with the exception of just a couple numbers, you can pretty much prove out every number in that p and l.

Ken:
And that’s I just don’t, I sometimes people don’t, either they don’t understand it or they don’t know how to do the work. But you gotta do the work at least a few times to understand it. Because then, you know, you know, when you see a broker’s om or you see a T 12, you know, that wait a minute’s, something fishy here, there’s, they’re missing things or whatever. Yeah. Because there’s, there’s no consumer protection rules in place here. Right. This is business. So, you know, it’s kind of, you, you’re, you’re kind of in charge of your own safety, so to speak. So Yeah.

Charles:
Yeah. That’s great. The other thing I found too is that, like you’re saying is that they, they don’t find accurate comps. It’s apples to oranges comps. Yeah. Or it’s like, oh, this is a closest comp, it’s two and a half miles away. Well, it might as well be in another, another state because Yes sir. It’s not, it’s not going to, and then other people haven’t even driven the neighborhood, like you said, and that’s like a first thing I tell people before they even speak to brokers is drive the neighborhood and know, because there’s a lot of things you, you kind of pass over on Google Maps that you think is you know, that’s a train track that could be a major major change from one side of it to the other. Yes. You know, so but what are, what do you think are some of the main factors that haven’t contributed to your success over the years?

Ken:
Yeah, probably discipline. I mean, I’m pretty conservative, careful, risk averse guy, right? The commercial lender, the c p a background. So that probably doesn’t surprise you. You know, just the discipline. We’ve never approached this as, oh my God, I gotta have a deal. I gotta get a deal, I gotta get a deal. I’m, you know, fomo, you know what FOMO is, right? Fair missing out <laugh>. We’ve never really had that because I’ve always had enough income from other sources that I don’t have to do a deal tomorrow. Right? And that’s exactly what we tell our investors. That’s the first, one of the first conversations I have with them is, guys, you need to be patient. I’m gonna frustrate you a little bit because I’m going to look and I’m gonna pass on a lot of deals. I’m not gonna, it’s not my job to buy the first three deals I see, right?

Ken:
I’m gonna pass, I’m gonna be disciplined. So that is probably the number one thing that has allowed me to be successful. Because with that discipline, I, I just, everything has to make sense. And the, the, the challenge for people is, well, somebody else bought it and they paid a lot more and blah, blah, blah. Well, okay, so if my worst mistake is that I passed on a deal I shouldn’t have, a bigger mistake is buying the deal you shouldn’t have done. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. Because once you’re in it, you’re in it. I mean, you, you’re, you’re, you’ve gotta figure out how to get out of it if it’s not going well. So I would say that’s the number one thing, discipline and just, just let, let the world crumble around you. Let people do whatever they’re gonna do. You do what makes sense for you and what you know is right and you know, hopefully you’ll always be right.

Charles:
Yeah, that’s great advice cuz you see a lot of syndicators now, especially new ones, just live on that acquisition fee. So that’s why you’re like, wow, really, like you’re paying this much per door. This is just, and it’s like every, you know, every couple months you have something coming out and I mean, it’s just all through the pandemic and everything like that. When some people were kind of easing up a little bit, seeing what was gonna happen and you had some people, cause they were, you know, that’s how they make their living is by buying properties and raising money for ’em. So yep. So how, how can our listeners learn more about you and your business, Ken?

Ken:
Yeah, so go to k r i partners.com/ebook. It’s, I wrote a book it’s not a very long book, but I wrote it, it’s free, you can download it. I cover two topics that every single PE person in this business faces. The first one is i n everybody knows people are making a ton of money in real estate. They know that, but they’re trying to figure out how it fits into their life. So I try to take you through that process, what, you know, what really fits in your life, right? It doesn’t mean everybody should be the person to go out and buy a 200 unit complex. Right? You, you’ve got a great day job, whatever. You’ve got family, you’ve got all sorts of things in your life. Figure out what works. Most of the time it leads people to being a passive investor.

Ken:
Yeah. That’s where it normally leads people to. So that’s why the second half of the book I talk about vetting sponsors and if there’s one thing that I’m really passionate about, it’s that vetting of sponsors because this whole private capital market is so fragile, right? You need to have good sponsors that are transparent, that are always putting their investors first. And if that continues, everybody does is going to do and continue to do extremely well. So it’s kri partners.com/ebook. That’s why I wrote it. It’s just a top two topics that I’m really really passionate about. And hopefully, you know, hopefully your readers or your listeners get some value outta reading it.

Charles:
Yeah. Thank you very much, Ken. I will put that link into the show notes and I wanna thank you so much for coming on today and looking forward to connecting with you in the near future.

Ken:
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me.

Charles:
Talk to you soon.

Charles:
Hi guys! It’s Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in get involved with real estate, but you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 30 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com. Thank you.

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About Ken Gee

Mr. Gee is the founder and managing partner of KRI Partners and the KRI group of companies. He has more than 24 years of significant real estate, banking, private equity transaction and principal investing experience. Throughout his career, he has been involved in transactions valued in excess of $2.0 billion, much of which has included the acquisition, management and financing of various multi-family real estate projects as well as playing a significant role as a member of due diligence and transaction structure planning teams for several private equity firms specializing in the small and middle markets.

Prior to forming KRI Partners, Mr. Gee was a tax manager with Deloitte & Touche LLP where he focused his practice on state and local tax planning, merger and acquisition due diligence and transaction structure planning for private equity and middle market companies. Some of his major clients included The Riverside Company, Key Equity Capital Partners, Blue Point Capital, Linsalata Capital Partners, The Zaremba Group, Charter One Bank and Applied Industrial Technologies, Inc.

Prior to his career at Deloitte & Touche, Mr. Gee spent several years at National City Bank (now part of PNC Bank) where he served as commercial loan officer, credit analyst, branch manager, and mortgage loan originator during his career with the bank.

Unrelated to his real estate experience, Mr. Gee also owned and operated several certified Cessna Pilot Centers in the Northeast Ohio area. These Cessna Pilot Centers operated an FAA approved professional pilot school and specialized in the sale of new and pre-owned aircraft.

Mr. Gee is a licensed Ohio Certified Public Accountant. He received his master’s degree from Case Western Reserve University’s Weatherhead School of Management and his B.B.A. from the University of Toledo. He is a member of the National Apartment Association, Florida Apartment Association, Bay Area Apartment Association, Apartment Association of Greater Orlando, First Cost Apartment Association, Northeast Ohio Apartment Association, Ohio Society of Certified Public Accountants and American Institute of Certified Public Accountants.

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