GI218: Evaluating Properties and Partners with Matt Fore

GI218: Evaluating Properties and Partners with Matt Fore

Matt Fore spent over a decade in sales and sales leadership positions at one of the largest technology companies in the world. After finding real estate, Matt was able to achieve financial independence in 3 short years by the age of 32. Today, Matt is a partner at Next-Level Income, a $1B+ real estate private equity firm that focuses on Multi-Family, Self-Storage, Mobile Home Parks, Car Washes and various real estate debt.

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Transcript:

Announcer:
Welcome to the Global Investor Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market. Host Charles Carillo combines decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now, here’s your host, Charles Carillo.

Charles:
Do you have money sitting in the stock market? And you’re worried about it or worse. You have money sitting at the bank, not keeping up with inflation. My name is Charles Carillo, founder and managing partner of Harborside Partners. And since 2006, I’ve been investing my money and my family’s money into income producing properties. These are real assets, real properties with real addresses that produce real cash flow. At Harborside Partners, we provide passive investors who love real estate with a turnkey investing solution. If you want to put your money to work in real estate, but can’t find deals, don’t have the time to get funding in. The last thing that productive people want to do is manage real estate. We find the deals. We fund the deals and we manage the tenants, the termites and the properties. Partner with us at investwithharborside.com. That’s investwithharborside.com. Go to investwithharborside.com. If you love real estate, you like the idea of passive income and believe that income producing properties will appreciate over time. Go to investwithharborside.com. That’s investwithharborside.com.

Charles:
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast; I’m your host Charles Carillo. Today we have Matt Fore. He spent over a decade in sales and sales leadership positions at one of the largest technology companies in the world. After finding real estate, Matt was able to achieve financial independence in 3 short years by the age of 32. Today, Matt is a partner at Next-Level Income, a $1B+ real estate private equity firm that focuses on Multi-Family, Self-Storage, Mobile Home Parks, Car Washes and various real estate debt. So thank you so much for being on the show today, Matt.

Matt:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Charles.

Charles:
So I kind of gave a little brief background, but if you can go a little bit more in depth about yourself, both personally and professionally prior to getting involved in real estate investing and private equity.

Matt:
Yeah, sure. So on the personal side, I’m based here in Nashville, Tennessee, where I live with my partner in two children. On the professional side, like you mentioned, I’ve spent over a decade in sales and sales leadership roles at some of the largest tech companies in the world. And how I got involved in real estate is back at 2016, I landed a life changing deal with a net new logo, huge commission check coming. My eyes got wide open on kind of how I was gonna invest this money. Grew up in a very poor town and never got into watches, cars, boats and things like that. So I knew I wanted to invest it, and then I got the faithful call the week of Christmas from my former VP that told me I wasn’t gonna receive that commission check, that I was only gonna receive 2 cents on the dollar. And it was that point that I realized, hey, if I wanted to achieve the goals that I wanted to achieve, give back to the causes I cared about, I was just gonna have to find a different route. So that’s what got me involved in real estate and take it from there.

Charles:
That’s awesome. That’s not, I mean, that’s a life-changing story. It’s awesome how it ended up, but it’s, I mean, it probably wasn’t awesome at the time that it was happening to you. I imagine that wasn’t the best Christmas you ever had, <laugh>.

Matt:
Yeah, I mean, look, I, yeah, I’m always happy in the career that I had with the people that I met and the training that I got and things like that. But the fact of the matter is, when you work at a larger organization, you are always going to be capped on the amount of money you make. Yeah. and fortunately for me, like this scratched an itch of investing in finances, something I’d always been interested in, but never really pursued. So I kind of kicked me start kickstarted me down this rabbit hole then I’m on.

Charles:
So Matt, when you, when you started investing in real estate, kind of, can you explain how you got started? Were you more on the active side? Were you a passive investor? What kind of property was it?

Matt:
Sure. So first and foremost, when I was going to receive that commission check, I was looking for things that cash flowed mm-hmm. That appreciate and got tax benefits. So I looked at everything from crypto stocks businesses, bonds, all that sort of stuff. And real estate just checked all of those boxes. And like most investors, I decided to get involved on the active side. So I started with a single family right around the corner from me that was built the year prior. And I’d had one owner, I thought, Hey, eyes and ears on the property, I know the area. All those sorts of things. And then ultimately started going down flips, spurs, all those sorts of things before getting involved in larger transactions. Yeah,

Charles:
That’s interesting. Just so you said that most people, no matter you had a busy, successful profession, most people go and look at Active First and they like, even if passive was offered to ’em at the same time. And I just find that very interesting and like, I mean, I, I came from more of an active family with real estate investing, so it’s different, but I just see that and like, they’re like, oh, I was gonna do this, and then it’s like passive or like, I don’t wanna do this. And like I’ll have those calls with investors where they’ve kind of come to Jesus moment where they’re like, like, listen, I can’t do like all this stuff. I just want to get like what you said, tax benefits, cash flow, all the stuff that everybody loves from real estate, not getting calls. But yeah, it’s interesting. It’s interesting how that works, the investment mindset. Yeah.

Matt:
I’ll take it one step further. I mean, I didn’t even know pa passive investing existed when I first got started. So shame on me for not knowing that. But we talk to investors all the time who are doctors, entrepreneurs, business owners, high performing w two sales roles, all sorts of things like that. And one of the things I tell ’em is like, Hey, why do you want to take on this additional job and trying to understand it when you already have a high net worth and a high net income skill when basically if you go down this, this path, you’re gonna be starting at zero and trying to build that up again. So I have some rules of thumb, like when does it make sense to do active? When does it make sense to do passive? Both have served me very, very well and my investing journey. But absolutely if I would’ve known about passive investing at the beginning, I probably would’ve gone down that path.

Charles:
That’s very interesting. Matt, do you mind kinda sharing what those rules of thumb are? I love rules of thumb to kind of guide people over, you know, pretty much on a 30,000 foot view of what they’re doing or what they should do. Sure.

Matt:
So I’ll caveat it with the idea that if you are in real estate and you are a real estate professional, full-time access to deals, off market deals, you’re brokering conversations all the time. Maybe this doesn’t apply to you, but if you’re a doctor or lawyer or any W two employee, I tell, I try to guide investors on that. You need to make at least 25% a year if you’re gonna pursue something actively. And that can come in the form of cashflow and appreciation on some specific project, because if not, it’s not gonna be worth the mental task of having to switch functions in your life from W two to active real estate, to father to hobbyist and all those sorts of things. And most importantly that nobody talks about is the legal responsibilities of having to take on an active project as well. So I talk to investors all the time who are like, yeah, I’m getting 8% cash on cash. And I’m like, that’s great, but what if something happens? And whether you are right, wrong, whether you have your assets structured in a trust, LLCs, child LLCs, all that kind of stuff. It’s not fun being a part of a lawsuit. So that’s just kind of how I think about it. Yeah,

Charles:
Yeah, that’s, and I, I tell people too, like if, if they come to you and they’re obviously making over a hundred thousand dollars a year, I’m like, do you really want to be dealing with like $25, $35 an hour tasks of like, that’s, even if you have a property manager, they’re still gonna call you and be like, listen, we can do one roof, we can do half a roof. Even. Like, do you want have these conversations when you can like bill someone or get on the call like for what you’re doing, get on the call and sell like a large company technology? I mean, it just doesn’t make sense. So I, I understand some people really don’t like their jobs and that’s why they do it, which I don’t feel is the best option either of doing it. But I think it’s like if you’ve spent decades, it’s not gonna be that easy, just like restarting it with a new career. It’s really maybe you spend another five years doing what, you know, even though it’s not your favorite, investing some money and really getting that passive that additional income stream going.

Matt:
That’s right. That’s right.

Charles:
So Matt moving forward, kind of like, tell us about your firm today, your what your investment strategy is.

Matt:
Yeah, sure. So at next level income, we’re more on the private equity syndication side. I mean, we focus really on five main asset classes, multi-family, self-storage, car washes, mobile home parks, and then we have a fix and flip debt fund that we help active real estate investors that want to borrow hard money and things like that. I don’t know if you, I’m happy to go into each one of those. I’m happy to take one at a time. Just you, you help me on where it adds value to you.

Charles:
Yeah. So I mean I think one of the interesting, we, we’ve spoken to people on all those really on the show, I think the real estate debt fund and we understand what the end product is as you just explained it as flipping, it’s providing, I imagine it’s hard money capital to flippers. Can you explain a little bit more about that asset class? ’cause That’s something that we haven’t really touched on here.

Matt:
Yeah, so I’ll caveat this with this. If you are listening to the show and you’re first involved in the passive real estate, you wanna start down this path of building an extra income stream. I wish I would’ve started in debt first. And the reason being is because it’s consistent, it’s stable and you’re usually getting it at a lower L t v loan to cost loan to value. So if something happens, you are basically snagging a property at a discount. And I wish I would’ve built up my income streams based off of debt to cover my monthly and yearly nut or my monthly and yearly expenses, and then moved more into the equity side to go try to double and triple and things like that. So you’re right on the debt fund, what we do is provide hard money loans to the fix and flippers out there.

Matt:
We charge two and 12 to them, depending on their credit. We might go 10, we might go 14. But essentially we charge 2% to access the capital and then 12% interest only payments for six months. At the end of that six months, they have the ability to either pay us back the principle in full or extend the loan. If they extend the loan, then we have some extra terms around that to make sure it’s still on track and the LTVs line up and all sorts of things like that. But it’s a really, it’s, it’s, it’s a need out there. We are lending on assets that basically banks won’t lend on at a discounted rate, so we’re protected there as well.

Charles:
What what markets do you do that in? Is that

Matt:
Mostly the southeast? Yeah. Okay. So both my easy to

Charles:
Sell, there’s an issue. Yeah, yeah,

Matt:
Exactly. The way I describe it is both my business partner and I have the luxury of living in the southeast. He moved from the southeast to the southeast about 20 years ago because it’s all the demographic trends, supply shortages, demographic tailwinds, more business favorable states. Like why go play in somebody else’s backyard when we’ve got the best market we, we feel like in our backyard?

Charles:
No, that’s awesome. Yeah, that’s one thing people don’t really understand a hundred percent about. When you’re investing equity side and syndications and people, operators are notorious for this selling you something that’s, oh, it’s consistent cash flow and this and that, and you’re buying a business. So there’s gonna be quarters where you do well and you’re getting it and there’s gonna be quarters like, listen, we we’re, you know, we’re reinvesting some of this funds and we’re doing this, or we’re doing that, or we’re building up more of reserve and we’re gonna pause distributions or we’re gonna have ’em, or whatever. It’s, so that’s a very interesting way to bring it about. Now the one thing I would say between the debt and the equity I would think is the tax benefits are a little different. Is that correct?

Matt:
That’s right. Non-Existent

Charles:
And there, yeah.

Matt:
Yeah. So first and foremost don’t get your tax advice from Charles and I I’m not a CPA in a certified plant. I’m a guy in skinny jeans that Charles found on the internet. Like, I just know a little bit about this stuff. I’m not, don’t take advice from me, but that’s right. So when I’m talking to investors, there really is no tax benefits to doing any kind of fixed income based off of debt. So you, you’re not gonna get the depreciation and things like that. So we do see our investors take advantage of things like self-directed IRAs, solo 4 0 1 kss tax deferred vehicles already to to avoid paying income tax on those income streams.

Charles:
Right? But it’s also, you have a contract, which is different than the equity side where you sign a hundred pages that says this is the highest risk thing you’ll ever do. Whereas on your side, you’re actually signing something, it’s you’re, you’re on the other side of the mortgage. So if you’ve ever gotten a mortgage, you kind of know what that paperwork is and it’s pretty much that whatever it is we’re getting paid back no matter who we have to take from you, you know what I mean? Or what we have to take from you. So well that’s very interesting. But so with involve, I always like to see us with a lot of private equity firms that are involved in a number of different asset classes. And you’re partnering. Now, is this like where you’re partnering with a lot of operators that are really handling the day-to-day and or are you guys out there actively sourcing deals for certain asset classes that you’re specializing in?

Matt:
Yes and yes. To give you a long, a short answer, a long answer short so first and foremost, we don’t partner with a ton of operators out there. We partner with very few select, and we want to see our ability to not do one deal, not do 10 deals, but to grow the partnership over decades is kind of how our long-term view is on it. So we’re not gonna hop from deal to deal operator to operator market to market because we want to raise funds and do deals. We pick very few strategic partners that we say, Hey, this is an asset class that we’re interested in. These are the two partners that we feel like we can go scale our business with and who have Purdue produced proven track records. And that’s kind of how we move forward with that.

Charles:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah, we, we only have three operators that we focus on working with that we’ve done for years. And it’s it’s, yeah, that’s the way you build relationships where you’re going into something and you’re gonna be working with them for 10 or 15 years. That’s the mindset going in and it’s a whole different type of relationship, I think on the day-to-day when you’re working with them. Right.

Matt:
And, and core values have to align too, right? Of course. I think in 2019 to 2021, it was easy to say, how can we get deals done? It doesn’t matter. But in 2023, we’re starting to find out like, are you really, do you have integrity in your soul or is it something you’d said just to get a deal done sort of thing. So that’s, I mean, those, those things are important to us. And now more than ever we’re seeing whether those come through or not.

Charles:
Yeah. I feel the next 12 to 18 months we’re gonna flush out a lot of people that didn’t, weren’t really professional. Syndicators operators, just like in oh 8, 0 9 when we, when, you know, real estate flushed out a lot of mortgage brokers and agents that were just, you know, didn’t really have real businesses. Right. They were just kind of selling stuff that wasn’t the best for who they were selling it to. So when you’re investing into many different asset classes, you know, you’re working with all these partners and we talked a little bit about you building a long-term relationship with them, how do you go about vetting them? And that could be if you’re gonna operate with them partner or if you’re gonna passively invest with them.

Matt:
Yeah, so I do both, so that’s a really good question. We do active deals as operators. I also invest passively in other deals as well. So I’ll take it in twofold. One I remember talking to a family office one time and we were talking a little bit about what we did and things like that, and they were like, great, put a marker on your calendar and five years come back to me and tell me what your returns have been and your track record, et cetera. And that really kind of set a light bulb up in my head that, wow, these guys are looking at things from a very long-term perspective and they can play the long game. So when we’re dealing with operators and we, we meet operators that we potentially wanna partner with ’cause their thesis aligns, their markets aligned, and we feel like that we can operate a business together, then that’s kind of how we start the conversation, Hey, we want to continue this conversation.

Matt:
We wanna build some cadences, but ultimately we want to see a year from now if we’re still aligned, if we still have the same fundamental thesis, if we see the same issues, problems, how we would handle communication, all those sorts of things. Yeah. For me, when I’m investing in deals, I mean there’s three things I really look at. It’s the operator, the, the, the market and then the business plan. And when I’m looking at the operator, what I really want to see is that they have a track record in the asset class in the market and in the business plan that they’re trying to operate in. And also when you’re talking about these big syndication comp deals, there’s always multiple people involved that they have a track record with the team people and the team that they are going to execute against. ’cause We all know that there’s gonna be issues that come up and I wanna see that this isn’t your first deal together, that you all have worked through those issues before in the past.

Charles:
Ah, that’s a lot of great information. Yeah, it’s funny when you, you can listen to any kinda podcasts you want or anything like that. And then when you actually speak to family offices some of the most, if not sophisticated investors that I’ve ever spoken to, and it’s just like what their mindset is. And if you’re ever, I mean we’re in multiple deals with family offices how they operate it, how they control their distributions, how they review the books. I mean, I actually love passively investing when there’s a family office because there’s a lot more oversight and it’s really like, oh yeah, we’re gonna, you know, distributions are gonna be like a week or two late because we need like three people from the family office to sign off on all this. And you’re like, this is how it does. I mean, this is how they put into the contracts they bring, they write big checks and they have a thesis of how they invest. That’s obviously worked for them. And it’s much different than your mom and pop investor that doesn’t look, I guess doesn’t do as much due diligence.

Matt:
Yeah. The one thing I would say there though is if you are a mom and pop investor investing in some deals passively, start asking questions though, see if there’s a bigger family office or institution involved, because what they don’t present in the investment summaries when those offices are involved is that typically they get a little bit more preference either in the capital stack or the distributions and that might throw things off in the way that they’re presenting deals and things like that. So I completely agree with you. It is rarely a bad thing to follow smart money, but also understand that that smart money might be doing a deal because they have different terms than what you’re seeing as well.

Charles:
Yeah. I would imagine they have different terms, they’re more on the prof equity side and they have a different setup. It’s, it, I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s just one of those things that they’ve vetted the deal, but they’ve can vetted to a different level than you because they’re getting paid before you. So obviously not just ’cause there’s any family office in there, that’s a good investment. It’s just one thing that there’s different oversight on the deal versus just a couple groups of operators, maybe six people, you know what I mean, that are looking at it, so Right. That’s, that’s a great way of going through and reviewing the deals. I, you know, you always, I like the idea of what they said about the five years, and I think that’s a great way of doing it. And how we’ve worked with new operators.

Charles:
We’ve brought in to our group over the last three or four years. It’s people that we’ve passively invested with first and then also have done an active deal with as well. So it’s you know, before we really add them into somebody that we’re gonna be working with on a, on basis, because they’re long term deals, so you can’t partner with someone. It’s not like flipping a property where it’s flipped, it’s done like you said, six months, nine months, 12 months, whatever it might be. These are, you know, they will be now the five to seven years before they were like the two to five years. But we’re getting into that area where these deals are gonna be held for longer. So that’s a long term, a long time for a partnership. But Matt, you, you, you had something before I read about you had a four step process for achieving anything you want in life. Can I, can you explain what this process is and then how you’ve utilized it in your own life? Sure.

Matt:
So a little bit of background. I’m an Ironman triathlete, which is, for those that don’t know, is a 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, a 26.2 mile run. Yes. It’s in a single day. Yes, it’s a single event. I don’t know why I do it either. I’m a glutton for punishment, so let’s get that outta the way. But one of the things that Ironman taught me was how to achieve big goals that are longer term. I think when I was growing up, I had dyslexia, so I was always focused on like the immediate goal and the challenges in front of me and those sorts of things. And Ironman forces you to take a step back and say, I’ve got this big audacious goal, how do I get there over the long term? So really I think in achieving anything in life comes down to four things.

Matt:
First and foremost is clarity. You have to understand where you’re going before you, you decide on your journey. And if you don’t know where you’re going, any route will get you there. And so I think if you look at the most successful people in life, it’s not that they know a secret trick to anything, it’s that they are more clear on what they want and are able to block everything else out. The second thing is consistency. I believe that consistency will beat talent over the long run every single day of the week. And if you’ve ever read the book Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel, fantastic book, but he talks about like Warren Buffet on, on the grand scheme of things is just a slightly above average investor. What made him one of the richest people in the world and why everybody knows him is because he was consistently focused on investing since the age of like eight or 13 or something like that.

Matt:
And now the dude’s 93 years old, right? So compounding over time and consistency will help you get there. I’ve got some good anecdotes around that, but, and Ironman, it’s like you, if you miss a workout, you can’t double up a six hour workout. Like you just gotta do your workout every single day. And if you can’t do the six hours, do the 10 minutes, do the five minutes, yeah. The third is coaching. So if you’re consistently doing something every day, that’s the get going phase and the coaching phase, it’s the get good. So once you get going, then you can get good at something. And coaching is really about like having somebody around you that has gone through the process before and can tell you about the pitfalls before you step in him. And then the last is compounding. So I touched a little bit about with Buffet, like Buffet is the richest person in the world because he one of the richest people in the world now because he’s been doing it for much longer. At the time, Morgan Housel wrote his book, I think he was worth like $58 billion and I’m sorry, he was worth like a hundred billion dollars and like 70 billion of it came after the age of 70 or something like that. So it’s just amazing how compounding will grow as long as you’re consistent and you have some guidance around making sure you’re doing the right actions.

Charles:
Yeah. And if you read into when I, whenever you, you read into these investors that have become very successful and become billionaires and if you kind of see what they’re, what they’re investing into and what their investment plan is, it’s not really that, I wouldn’t say difficult. It’s, it’s a very, it’s pretty simple, you know what I mean? It, they’re, they’re pretty simple principles and they all make sense when you’re thinking about it. It’s not like something that they, you know, it’s, but it’s just doing it consistent and like you said, then it’s compounding and it’s just it’s crazy.

Matt:
I heard this today. It’s simple. It’s not easy. Of

Charles:
Course. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt:
That’s, that’s the, the name of the game. Like everybody wants to do the simple thing or the easy thing and then they get distracted with, oh, what if I tried this or what if I tried that? Just do the easy sim, just do the simple thing over and over and over again, and I guarantee you beat the person that moves from tactic to tactic over time. Yeah,

Charles:
The shiny the shiny object. So Matt, what are some common mistakes you you’ve seen real estate investors make, let’s say since you started investing in real estate?

Matt:
I would say try, it’s gonna sound too simple, but simple is, is good is trying to do everything themselves. Like when we think about the real estate markets in a us, I never say real estate market because it’s more markets, subdivisions, asset classes, et cetera. But every p the mistake I see is you’re trying to do it yourself. Like, I don’t know this about legality stuff, so I’m gonna go try to Google it and figure it out. I don’t know, I’m not gonna pay somebody to do a contract. I’ll chat G P t it and there’s errors in the contract and now he doesn’t hold up in law. It’s little things like that. So I wish I would’ve 10 years ago surrounded myself then with the people that could offset the skillsets that I don’t have to help me grow faster. So that would probably be the number one thing is always making sure that you’re networking, telling people what you’re doing, and then leveraging other people’s given gifts and skills to go accelerate your goals too.

Charles:
Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s great advice I’ve seen before because you see people that might have large portfolios that they own themselves and you’re like, well, how do you manage that? Or how do you do that? You know, I did it with, you know, say one property and I had an issue with it. And, and then when you, you’re speaking to them and they tell you about this great network they have, well I got this full-time person that does this. I have this person that does that. I mean, this person could do that 10 times, 10 times over because they have that system, they have that team, it’s all in place. And that’s one thing I’ve found is like, you know, the boots on the ground team when you’re investing in real estate, it, it’s like, makes or breaks it, you know what I mean?

Charles:
Yes. Just like, so it’s great having people, the asset managers and we’re calling property managers and we’re getting reports of vacancies and what’s being rented and how we’re getting those deals so we can market ’em. But it’s really important about the people that are dealing with your tenants on the ground who are making sure there’s no trash on the ground, making sure the hedges and landscaping’s done. So Pete, it looks more, it looks nicer for new tenants and all this stuff that really adds to the bottom line, not right away, but in the long term on that property, which is what difficult too, because you won’t see it right away. And I think that’s adds one thing to what investors make a mistake on. So that’s a lot of great information there, Matt.

Matt:
Yeah. Yep.

Charles:
So as we’re wrapping up here, how can our listeners learn more about you and next level income?

Matt:
Yeah, sure. So I’m available on all social media platforms. You can find me on LinkedIn, Matt four from Nashville, Tennessee. You’ll see my ugly smiling face up there. You can also go to next level income.com and there will be a button at the top right that says Invest, that’s a straight link to my calendar where we can have time to chat.

Charles:
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming on today and looking forward to, you know, meeting up with you and connecting with you here in the near future.

Matt:
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Charles:
Have a great rest of your day.

Charles:
Hi guys! It’s Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in get involved with real estate, but you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 30 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com. Thank you.

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About Matt Fore

Matt Fore is a real estate investor based out of Nashville, Tennessee. In his professional career, he has spent over a decade in sales and sales leadership positions at one of the largest technology companies in the world. After finding real estate, Matt was able to achieve financial independence in 3 short years by the age of 32. Today, Matt is a partner at Next-Level Income, a $1B+ real estate private equity firm that focuses on Multi-Family, Self-Storage, Mobile Home Parks, Car Washes and various real estate debt.

When he’s not working, he enjoys reading, training for Ironman triathlons and convincing his brother that he is the favorite twin. Matt began his investing career when he was told that he wouldn’t be paid a life-changing commission check he had earned while working at one of his former employers. When he asked why they decided not to pay him, his VP asked him “How much have you made this year? Isn’t that enough?” It was at that moment he knew he needed to take his financial future into his own hands. 5 years later, he achieved financial independence.

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