GI225: Commercial Real Estate Investing with Ash Patel

GI225: Commercial Real Estate Investing with Ash Patel

Ash Patel is a full time commercial real estate investor for the last 10 years. Previously he spent 15 years in corporate America. He now invests in; retail, warehouses, offices, industrial, mixed use, medical, restaurants and ground up development.  Ash is a hands-on property manager and also teaches others how to invest in non-residential commercial property through his Mastermind at Invest Beyond Multifamily.

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Announcer:
Welcome to the Global Investor Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market. Host Charles Carillo combines decades of real estate investing experience with a professional background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing. Now, here’s your host, Charles Carillo.

Charles:
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast; I’m your host Charles Carillo. Today we have Ash Patel. Ash is a full time commercial real estate investor for the last 10 years. Previously he spent 15 years in corporate America. He now invests in; retail, warehouses, offices, industrial, mixed use, medical, restaurants and ground up development. Ash is a hands-on property manager and also teaches others how to invest in non-residential commercial property through his Mastermind at Invest Beyond Multifamily. So thanks so much for being on the show today, Ash.

Ash:
Hey, Charles. Good to be here.

Charles:
Yeah, No, it’s, you’re usually on the other side of the mic, so it’s great to get you. I’m <laugh>. How many episodes have you done on the Best Ever commercial real estate show?

Ash:
A few hundred, if I had to guess.

Charles:
Few hundred. Oh,

Ash:
Wow. Okay. Yeah, I have no idea. <laugh>.

Charles:
Um, so Ash, please tell us about your background, both, uh, personally and professionally prior to getting involved in real estate investing.

Ash:
Yeah. So born and raised in Jersey. Went to school at Indiana University in southern Indiana. Got a job in Cincinnati after college. I thought I’d be here for a year or two. I always lived light, hoping to pack up my car and move out to one of the coasts. Uh, I’ve been here for about 25 years now, so that didn’t happen. <laugh>, uh, married two kids, had a 15 year it career and kind of found real estate by accident. Fell in love with it, and I’ve been doing that for over 10 years,

Charles:
Years. What was the reason that you chose real estate as your investment vehicle?

Ash:
I was looking for a tax write off.

Charles:
Okay.

Ash:
And didn’t realize that that was gonna be me finding my calling and again, truly fell in love with commercial real estate.

Charles:
So, let’s talk about this for a second because I get, you know, obviously we talk a lot about here about, uh, multifamily real estate investing and, um, but getting, I, I like to get people on that invest in non-residential commercial real estate. And can you explain why you chose that, um, kind of path and that asset class, those asset classes versus going into what I think has got a lot of buzz around it for the last, uh, several years, which is multifamily?

Ash:
Yeah. You know, it’s a good question. Uh, I didn’t set out to be a commercial real estate investor happened by accident. My first building was a mixed use building. So I had a commercial tenant on the first floor and residential tenants on the second and third floors, and they were college kids. This was in a college town. The commercial tenant was a grocery store slash beer store selling booze to college kids. Um, and I saw where the residential tenants were destroying my apartments, just, you know, typical college kids. And the commercial tenants were putting tens of thousands of dollars into my building and proving it, redoing their mechanicals. And it blew me away that there’s two different types of tenants and it still blows me away while everybody doesn’t get out of residential and go into commercial.

Charles:
So it’s, it’s funny because my first commercial property that I invested into was a mixed use property, and it was all residential above it. And then it was office on the first floor, which I moved into making my own office. So I didn’t really have a commercial tenant until I moved my office outta there. But yeah, I know exactly how it is. It’s, it’s a mix. And was that tenant there? Did you, did you inherit that tenant from the previous owner?

Ash:
I did inherit that tenant. Um, I was able to raise their rents and eventually sold them the building. Nice.

Charles:
And the

Ash:
Guy’s one of my best friends today. Um, now when you have a mixed use building, the highest and best buyer is going to be your commercial tenant because when I sold the building to them, they essentially got the building and had free rent. Right. Because the apartments were paying their mortgage and they were able to keep the building rent-free while they’re paying down a mortgage and overpay significantly for the building.

Charles:
So please explain kind of what your company’s investment strategy is and what your criteria for investment is currently.

Ash:
Yeah. We look for really high returns. And the reason for that is in mid, you know, like around 2015, 16, I started investing passively into multifamily. And those returns passively were over 20% annualized cash on cash upon sale. So I told myself, if I’m gonna do any of my own deals, they have to exceed 20% cash on cash, but really they need to far exceed that because if I’m putting my time into the deal, I’ve gotta get a return for it. So we’ve held true to that metric, the 20% cash on cash return. Um, there’s times that we’ll go as low as 14, 13% cash on cash, but there has to be a huge upside on the backend. So really that’s the one metric that we try to stick to every time, is just super high returns. But mostly it’s a value add, right? If, if there’s a deal that does let’s say 16, 17% cash on cash, we’ll likely pass on it. If it’s a fully leased stop, multiple renewals and you know, there’s just not much upside, it’s not a deal for us. We want those unicorn deals.

Charles:
Okay. Are you mainly finding your deals through commercial real estate brokers or are you maybe sourcing deals directly from owners? How, or do you do both?

Ash:
Uh, rarely do we find deals from brokers because if they are a commercial real estate broker, they know about cap rates, they know about n o i, they know how to price commercial property, right? So, uh, there’s one example that I can think of off the top of my head where we bought a strip mall from a commercial realtor. A commercial broker, and it was a 96,000 square foot dollar tree anchored strip. It was mispriced mis marketed. So this broker who’s a seasoned broker, second generation, didn’t put it on LoopNet, didn’t put it on czi, put it on his own website that nobody visits. It’s a little mom and pop website, and he still has the same strip mall two years later on his website as for sale, right? So it was heavily mis marketed and then the, the seller didn’t keep accurate financial records, so it was also mispriced.

Ash:
And that’s an example of how we can get a deal from a broker. But we look for mispriced, mismanaged or mis marketed deals. A lot of times residential realtors posting commercial deals is a great source. Uh, your network calling up for lease listings, right? Hey, I don’t wanna lease your building, I’d rather buy it. Are you interested? Right. So just getting creative, um, looking for off market deals yourself. Uh, but I, in commercial real estate, and when I say commercial, I mean non-residential commercial, I’ve seen the letter writing campaigns, the text, the postcards, and I’ve never seen that work on a, on a scale. Right. And I don’t know why. I don’t know if it’s because, um, we’re just not used to being hit up by marketers. Um, we’re less receptive to it. I, I honestly have no idea why, but I’ve not seen that work. So they’re one-off deals that you’ve gotta find.

Charles:
Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, when I bought that mult, uh, mixed use property, it was off, uh, m l s from a residential broker. So it’s definitely something that’s out there and it’s sat on the market for many months before I did. So it’s definitely a, um, yeah, it’s definitely a great avenue going on those, uh, residential or, you know, non-commercial kind of routes to finding properties. Um, you mentioned something earlier about value add with commercial real estate. Can you explain, um, kind of what that business plan consists of? ’cause it might differ a little bit from, obviously it’s gonna be the same overarching ending that we’d have with kind of multifamily, but what really is what consists in that business plan of what you’re, uh, spending time on focusing from the time of when you’re looking at property to the time of when you’re executing that business plan?

Ash:
Yeah, so Charles, it, it’s really similar in that we use N O I and cap rate to evaluate multi or uh, evaluate commercial property, but we’re not bound by rent comps. And what I mean by that is if you have a class B building and you have a class A building next door, the Class B can, you know, renovate the apartment, put the L V P down, paint the kitchen cabinets, redo the bathrooms, the flooring, the lighting, uh, fixtures, add a dog park, covered parking, put a gym in, raise rents. The problem is they can only raise rents up until they hit that class a floor, right? So they’re bound by rent comms in commercial real estate. We can take a vacant block building with a metal roof that you could pick up for $200,000. If you can sign a 10 year dollar general lease to that building, you’ve made 1.2 to $1.4 million. And it doesn’t matter what the comms are anywhere around you, you could be next to a mom and pop store that’s worth $200,000, right? So we’re not bound by comms in our world, it’s mostly income approach, right? So

Ash:
It really depends on the quality of the tenant, the length of the lease, uh, how much above or below market that lease is, what upside is remaining. Now, you know, you might think a long-term lease is great. The problem with that is historically a long-term lease would’ve been great because it’s nice to know that, you know, Starbucks, dollar General Chipotle, they’re not going anywhere ’cause they have 15 years left on their lease. The problem is, if that lease was initiated in that low inflationary period that we’ve had for many years, they probably signed a lease where every five years there is a five, six, 7% rent increase. Right? So the commercial people lose in that sense because multifamily, there was markets where there was 12, 13, 14% annual increases in rents. We can’t do that ’cause we’re bound by comms, sorry, we’re bound by the lease and bound by renewals.

Ash:
So where in the past having longer term leases may have helped you Today we look for under market leases that are coming up for renewal soon. And they don’t have any renewals, right? They’re expiring leases. So it’s one of the things we look for in, in terms of value add. You know, we want, if, if we’re buying a strip mall, the ideal strip would be, uh, a national tenant as an anchor, um, uh, other national tenants alongside, but then some mom and pops, some vacancies. So we can improve the value there, right? We’ll take office buildings that are, uh, either vacant or, uh, you know, undervalued under rented. Uh, we’ll convert them to uh, coworking spaces. We’ll take industrial, split ’em up into flex spaces. So there’s a lot of different creative ways that you can add value. If we, if you have a strip mall, uh, with a giant parking lot, you can sell an outlaw, build a Chipotle or Starbucks in your parking lot, right? And that’s things that may go overlooked ’cause not everyone is comfortable with developing.

Charles:
Interesting. So bringing in that national tenant or that major tenant really increases the value of the property. And that’s obviously one of the best routes to going to improving your n o i and the value of the property. How do you go before buying a property and is there any way of really testing, for lack of a better word, testing the appetite of any tenants of that stature coming in? Um, is there any way of knowing that or having an idea about the possibility of that actually happening on a potential property you’re buying before actually putting it under contract and purchasing it?

Ash:
Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ll answer it in two ways. One, let’s look at buying a property that has some or all vacancy. You can certainly test drive the property under due diligence, right? You can market it as if you already own it, uh, get the seller’s permission to do so. But you can test market it and see what kind of demand there is, right? So if you have a warehouse, flex space building, you know, market that and see if there’s a bunch of people responding to your advertise advertisements. Yeah.

Ash:
Um, for national tenants, they move much slower. So in a short period of due diligence, you’re not gonna be able to test the waters with national tenants. However, if you have contacts with brokers or franchisees of those national tenants, you can put some feelers out there and get an indication of how likely they are to bite. Now, you know, the million dollar question, how do you secure a Starbucks? How do you secure a Chipotle? Um, there’s no easy answer. There’s a lady named Beth Azo who’s, uh, been in this business for 30 years. She’s known as the canvassing queen. Even with all the relationships she has, she still has to knock on doors, canvas, try to steal tenants. Um, there’s no secret to it, right? Um, contacts certainly help experience certainly helps. But these national tenants move at their own pace, right? Even though you, you could have the absolute perfect location for that Starbucks, they’ll just say, yeah, we’re not expanding in that area currently.

Charles:
Interesting.

Ash:
And, and, and if they aren’t interested, it’s a very lengthy process where you submit all the demographic traffic counts, site plans, um, and it’s a tedious process.

Charles:
Yeah. We put a lot of weight on it as the multi-family fa side, as, um, when doing due diligence when we see those tenants that are in the near nearby area because we know, you know, the amount of due diligence that a Starbucks does versus some mom and pop, uh, cafe, let’s say that, uh, what they did to, um, make the decision to move into that neighborhood. And that gives us promise, uh, when buying in there too. So I definitely, definitely can see how much work it takes.

Ash:
Yeah. And for your listeners, you know, you can have a mom and pop coffee shop or a Starbucks, same building, same location. Um, but there’ll be a difference between a five cap and probably probably a nine cap. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? So the value will be twice as different almost.

Charles:
Yeah. Interesting. Uh, that’s crazy. But it just goes to show how strong that tenant is and how good that lease is gonna be and the ability, I guess, for them to, uh, renew at the end of it. Correct.

Ash:
Yeah.

Charles:
So let’s, let’s talk about some of the differences here. So you have a property under contract. Um, you’re going through it, there’s a lot more, as you’ve indicated, there’s a lot more time you’re spending on reviewing leases, um, during the due diligence ’cause it’s very important and a lot of value you can build from finding these undervalued leases. Um, so when you’re doing due diligence, other than the, the normal physical due diligence that somebody would do in every building, what else are you doing when you’re reviewing a property, um, during that process before you actually purchase it, um, to make sure that, uh, it, it’s gonna have some upside for you?

Ash:
Uh, another good question. So the leases, uh, we’ll, we’ll hit on that just for a bit. Yeah. Every lease is so different, right? Uh, even a triple net lease, there could be clauses in there where the tenant is responsible for repairs and maintenance on H V A C, but the landlord is responsible for replacement. Or they could be capped. The tenant will only pay up to $500 per year on repairs and maintenance. So literally every single commercial lease will be very, very different. So you’ve gotta read every paragraph. And some of these leases are 60, 80 pages long. You have to read every word of it. ’cause one paragraph can make a huge difference. For example, we had an anchor tenant in a strip mall. They had a site line provision that was three sentences in a 60 page lease where it said, uh, the site lines from their suite has to be clear all the way to the street.

Ash:
And what that means is you draw two imaginary lines from end to end of their store, go all the way out to the main road, nothing can be in that parking lot. So if you have a tractor supply that likes to put mulch out in the parking lot to sell, can’t happen. If you want to take some of your parking lot, put that Starbucks in there can’t happen, right? Three sentences in a 60 page lease. So the details are so important in those leases. Due diligence, we go way, way above and beyond. We will call everybody at the city that will talk to us, we’ll call economic development. We’ll find out what they think of that property, what they think of what’s gonna happen in this town, what they would like to see happen, what jobs are coming in. Uh, you know, what rumors are going around.

Ash:
We’ll call the chief of police, find out what crime is like. And you know, funny thing is one, one of these properties that I bought the chief of police is like, Hey, this town, we need a butcher call this guy, he wants to go in your strip mall. So this was in due diligence before I even bought it, and I got a tenant from calling a chief of police, right? Um, we’ll get onto social media sites for that town, not the official page. So, you know, if you live in St. Louis, Missouri, um, there might be a St. Louis Facebook page, but then there’s gonna be a neighborhood page where whatever area you’re in it, it’s a Facebook page where people go to gossip and complain and they, they, they talk about the schools, the crime, the politics, and it’s a lot of complaining. You go on that site where people speak freely and you say, Hey, look, I’m looking at buying this building.

Ash:
Please tell me your thoughts. And you, you say, look, I’m looking at buying this building. What would you like to see there? Why is it vacant? Why has it not been rented? Right? And it’s amazing how much knowledge you can get from people on those sites. Uh, there’s a whole list of other things, right? Um, obviously look at things like fire suppression, uh, code violations, uh, any zoning changes that might come through. Are you compliant with everything? Are they gonna make you put sprinklers in if you do any renovations? Um, there’s a ton, but little things, you know, like traffic count, population growth, household income are great, but I’m telling you, interact with people in that town on social media and you find out the vibe of the town can’t do that any other way.

Charles:
Interesting. That’s a lot of great information. Thank you. Um, so getting into the financing portion of this, after doing your due diligence, when, you know, when I’ve financed these small commercial properties before, whether it’s small apartment buildings or, uh, small commercial properties, mixed use, you know, I’ve, I’ve really used local lenders and I tell people the importance of local lenders, local credit unions, local banks when investing in small, you know, small commercial properties in local areas. I mean, what is that? How, how do you really finance these properties? And, um, how have you built relationships with your lenders?

Ash:
You hit the nail on the head. It’s the only way we finance those properties. Fannie and Freddie won’t touch commercial deals.

Charles:
No.

Ash:
Um, big banks won’t touch value add deals. I had two big Wall Street banks call me over the years and they’re like, gosh, we want to refinance all of your properties. We, you know, we want to collateralize them. And I thought, awesome. I could probably get a better rate, pull a bunch of money out. They went through my entire portfolio, my financials, they nitpicked just the properties that have been stabilized for three years or more. And that means fully leased long-term tenants for three plus years, right? And they were gonna leave everything else behind to this local lender who started with me and took a chance on me when no one else would. So I didn’t choose to go with those big banks. Relationships are everything. Um, today I know that if I bring a deal to my lender, it’s two emails. One, me sending them the email with the, with the purchase contract.

Ash:
The next email is them telling me when they’re clear to close. A lot of these deals don’t make any sense on paper. Uh, if they’re vacant or you know, if they’re upside down, no lender’s gonna touch them, but they don’t care. They’re banking on me, right? So that relationship with the local lender is everything. And today things have changed a lot. Lending, appetites are changing week by week. Uh, literally we’ve had lenders that would finance anything we wanted to, and then all of a sudden they’ll tell us they’re not doing office, they’re not doing industrial. And by the way, um, our relationship has to season for another year before we do any more deals with you. And it’s crazy because these, these banks, this one bank in particular, they were so gung-ho on building a relationship ship with us. But again, you know, a president, a board member may have handed down an edict on saying no more commercial loans.

Ash:
So today we heavily rely on lending brokers, which we never would have in the past because the brokers will pair you up with whatever bank they think is best. But these brokers know that week, who has a lending appetite, who’s new and hungry in this market, right? And we’re in a lot of different markets, so, um, we don’t always know who’s hungry at the time. Um, but you know, again, in the past never would’ve used them because we want to build the relationships. Uh, today. It’s always using a lending broker along with our existing lenders just to make sure nobody gets cold feet at the end.

Charles:
That’s great. Yeah. Always having a backup when you’re going through it, especially in the lending environment we’re in now.

Ash:
Yeah.

Charles:
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Charles:
For, for new investors interested in, uh, investing in commercial real estate, non-residential, I mean, what would you suggest to these, to these investors wanting to, uh, wanting to start out in this,

Ash:
Um, by mixed use building, right. Uh, I’m really jealous of the multi-family community, the self-storage community, the mobile home park community, because you guys all have masterminds where you can level up. There’s books, YouTube videos. I mean, there’s so much knowledge out there for commercial real estate. There’s almost nothing. All the masterminds that are out there, I looked at joining. Um, most of them were money grabs. Uh, and none of them were really comprehensive and they were very, very expensive. So buy a mixed, do what I did, just buy a mixed use building and you typically will cover all of your expenses by the apartments. So the commercial is just, you know, profit on top of that. And Charles will give you a quick example of why these buildings fall through the cracks. I had a mixed use building that I had a restaurant in and next door we were going to build an event center in the mixed use building that was adjacent to ours.

Ash:
Um, I, you know, I negotiated the price down to $165,000 building’s, been vacant for five years, and I just really wasn’t into expanding this restaurant or building an event center. So I passed on it and a month later I get a call from a friend of mine who is a residential investor, multifamily investor, and he says, OSH, will you help me with this commercial property? Sure. What’s the address? He tells me the address and I said, oh, look, I own the building next door. I tried to buy this, uh, I know for a fact you can buy it for 1 65. And he’s like, well, the commercial scares me. And I thought, whoa, hold on. The residential scares me because I don’t wanna deal with, I don’t wanna deal with residential tenants. So I said, why don’t we partner up on it? And he’s like, yeah, I just, he’s like, I just, I don’t want anything to do with commercial.

Ash:
And I said, okay, answer me this. If this building was the same footprint, same building, same exterior, but drop it down one story, just take the commercial part out of it. I said, what would you value four apartments, four, two bedroom apartments on that street at? And he said, probably 2 90, 300. And I’m like, oh my God, you can buy this building for 1 65 and you’re getting free commercial and it scares you that much. You’re walking away from it. He’s like, yeah, I’m good. And this building was on the m l s, right? If this was advertised as a four unit apartment building with no picture, there’d be a bidding war on it. But because they gave you a free commercial space on the first floor, it scared everybody away. I ended up buying this building for $150,000 right. And appraised at like four 90. Wow. So mixed use buildings fall through the cracks. Commercial people like me don’t want ’em, residential people don’t want ’em, banks hate ’em, right? Lenders, they, they don’t fall under residential. They don’t really fall into commercial. So you’ve gotta find the closest lender to that property to finance the building. Uh,

Charles:
That’s, that’s a lot of great information there. Yeah. What I’ve, what I’ve found with local lenders that I’ve worked with is they’ve, um, one mainly that I’ve worked with is they’ve had like a square footage type percentage and they’d say like, um, it’s like 85% had to be residential, the rest could be commercial. And they had it like in this like sweetheart program that they had. And so if you, it’s, it’s amazing how different the programs can change between bank to bank, I found even in the same town. So it’s,

Ash:
You’re right. Um, and that’s why I said find the closest bank to that property because a lot of community banks are incentivized to give lower loans in their own backyards, right? So if you find the right bank, you can pick these mixed use buildings up for five or 10% down.

Charles:
Yeah. It’s also easier to negotiate with those local banks. There’s usually only like a three person commercial, uh, uh, credit committee. So when they’re making these decisions and the people that are making decisions, usually if they’re right there close to the property, they’ve probably driven by the property, they might drive by it on their way in and outta work. So it’s, it’s, you got a lot more leverage there than going after one of those national or regional large ones. So Yeah, a

Ash:
Hundred percent correct.

Charles:
Um, so as we’re finishing up here, just, um, what are some of the common mistakes I guess you would see real estate investors make that are getting involved with, uh, commercial real estate?

Ash:
Um, not thinking big enough. So for me, I lied to myself for many years saying that there was a sweet spot between 300,000 and 800,000 where that’s where the highest returns were. And I did that because I didn’t have the courage to take down bigger buildings, right? Higher price properties. Um, and then I finally snapped out of that and I realized managing a $5 million building is literally much easier and less work than a $500,000 building. So, you know, my assistant will tell you the same thing. Our $500,000 building, we’re there a lot. We get texts from this tenants a lot, the $5 million building, we we’re never there. I mean, we just don’t even hear from those tenants, right? So go bigger, go faster. Um, that’s a, a mistake that I made for many years.

Charles:
Well, that’s great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. So how can our listeners learn more about you and invest beyond multifamily?

Ash:
Uh, Charles, my company is Invest Beyond Multifamily website, invest beyond multifamily.com. Email me, um, osh@investbeyondmultifamily.com. I’m pretty easy to find on LinkedIn, Facebook BiggerPockets.

Charles:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on today, Ash, and, uh, looking forward to connecting with you here in the near future.

Ash:
Great conversation. Thank you so much.

Charles:
Hi guys! It’s Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in get involved with real estate, but you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 30 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com. Thank you.

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About Ash Patel

Ash Patel left a 15 year long corporate career and has been a full time Commercial Real Estate Investor for over 10 years.  He is a value-add investor and has purchased retail, warehouse, flex, office, industrial, land, mixed use, medical, restaurants and has done ground up development.  From vacant buildings to fully leased NNN properties, the consistent theme is extraordinary returns.  He is a hands-on property manager and also teaches others how to invest in non-residential commercial property through his Mastermind at Invest Beyond Multifamily.

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