Charles:
Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors Podcast. I’M your host, Charles Carillo. Today, we have Gary Lipsky, a returning guest who was on the show previously, episode GI85. He is a multifamily syndicator who has acquired over 3,000 units with a total value of $250 million. In 2022, Inc. Magazine recognized his firm as the 25th fastest-growing Real Estate company. Gary hosts the Real Estate Investor Podcast, which I was just interviewed on. He is a best-selling author, has built several companies, co-produced three independent films, and started a non-profit organization for underprivileged children. So thank you so much for being on the show today, Gary.
Gary:
Charles, thanks for having me back.
Charles:
So for listeners that missed that first episode, can you give us briefly about your background, both personally and professionally prior to getting involved with what you’re doing now in real estate investing with your firm?
Gary:
Yeah, you know, I, I was an entrepreneur for as long as I can remember. I, I started a restaurant delivery service in, in, in college. Before that, I shoveled driveways in auto detailed cars in high school for some money. I co-produced, like you said, three independent films in my twenties. And I, I think that’s where I kind of learned, like, I love the creative side and I love the business side of things. And it was a really harsh lesson of like, you have to make your day. You have to get it done, no matter, like, this is the money you have and you’ve gotta make it work with, with, with whatever you have. So it was a really good training ground. And then like you said, I started working with schools. We did afterschool programs after <inaudible> leadership development. We were working with 9,000 students, mostly at risk youth throughout Southern California. And I had been investing in real estate during that time, and I had built up a really great team and they really didn’t need me anymore, and I was ready for my next venture. And so I sold that to a business partner and it’s still running and, and got into real estate full time.
Charles:
Why did you choose real estate? I mean, there’s so many different asset classes out there, and then multifamily more specifically because as we know, there’s so many different asset classes within real estate itself.
Gary:
So I, I love the idea of like, I, I, I can create tons of value by the way I look at things and creatively and, and, and from a number side of things, whereas any other business, it, it’s, it’s really hard depending upon where you buy that. So you could, whether it’s a single family, a 10 unit, a hundred unit, I can extract massive value. And, and by the way, I, I look at things and, and, and do my research. So it was, it was very a achievable to create massive wealth.
Charles:
So tell us about your company now. Kind of what you guys are doing what markets you’re in, what type of properties and and really what a strategy is, a normal strategy or business plan is when you purchase a property.
Gary:
So we focus on a few few markets so we can be experts in those markets. So we’ve, we’ve focused on the Southwest we bought all of our deals in Tucson mostly and, and Phoenix. And we’re looking for value add. So Tucson really became a market for us because there was, the deals were less picked over as Phoenix. Pricing just really took off on the last few years. And Tucson, we were finding deals that you know, we can, we can increase NOI by 40%. We’ve done that across our portfolio. So these were deals that right from the beginning, we can create massive value for our investors. And so yeah, value add multifamily typically at this point, 150 units or more, that that’s what we’re looking for.
Charles:
How are you guys finding that now with deal flow where we are at this part of the cycle? That’s a, that’s a pretty tough area. Yeah,
Gary:
Yeah. So we’ve done one deal in 17 months. Certainly we’ve, we’ve underwritten a ton of deals and made offers and like everyone else where there’s like a 10 to 20% gap in asking pricing. In 20 2022, there were 28 deals or more in Tucson a hundred units or more that, that, that sold in 2023. There was only three deals and I bought one of ’em. So, I mean, just a massive reduction in deal flow.
Charles:
Yeah, that’s crazy. One thing you mentioned earlier, which I kinda wanna drill down on, is you were talking about being a I don’t know how you put it, but as a, a master in your, or a really an expert of the markets you’re working in, can you kind of explain how you’ve picked the markets and how you’ve, you know, ’cause you have a lot of people out there, like if they can’t find deals in markets, like you were saying, they want to obviously do deals and they might go to different markets or change little criteria of what they’re working on, stuff like that. And I have to applaud you that you’ve kind of like stayed the path because it’s difficult myself the same way. We haven’t done deals since the end of 2022 as this is airing. But the thing though is it’s like, you know, you state your path of what you’re working on for syndicated deals, you’ve done other deals, but it’s like, you know, you stay the path of what you’re working on and you kind of don’t veer off that.
Gary:
Yeah, yeah. You see different people getting into different asset classes as well, but we need those data points to make informed decisions. So even though we haven’t bought a deal in Albuquerque and Vegas and Denver, we’ve been looking in those markets for, you know, a year and a half, two years, made some offers, haven’t gotten ’em, but we’ve acquired thousands of data points. So it allows us to know, okay, is this deal good? You know, we’ve got our pipeline, a chart that we can look at and, you know, vintage media, household income crime, just different things that we can, we can you know, kind of, you know, take from a current deal to like a previous deal and say, Hey, does this make sense? Does this not, where are things trending? So it just gives us a lot more information to make more informed decisions.
Gary:
So that’s really important. And, and, and sticking to that market, you know, we, we have all the great broker relationships over the years. They know, like, and trust me. So if I’m competing with, with maybe someone that’s new to the market or hasn’t done as many deals they know I can close, they’re gonna, they’re gonna push the seller and say, Hey, he might not have the highest offer, but I can rely on Gary to get, get it done. And so that’s, that adds a ton of value. We also have the confidence of execution because we’ve been working in those markets for a while. We have a property management team that we, that we like, and we know, we know their strengths, we know their weaknesses. When we go to properties, you know, we could visit all of our properties in one day. We could see a, a broker or two versus, you know, if I had properties in all different states, it’s really hard to get to, we visit our properties on a monthly basis and that, and that, that adds a lot of value to our, our properties because our, our staff know that we’re gonna be visiting on a consistent basis. We’re not gonna always tell them when we’re coming and they’re gonna perform at a higher level.
Charles:
Yeah. It’s, it’s one interesting thing is because if I am passively investing into a deal, and when I’m reviewing it, and now I’ve like changed around how I do it in the sense of like, what’s most important. And when I see operators that have multiple assets in one area, especially, and they’ve had it with the same property management company, and like, so there’s like five or so that are rent, you know, by managed by this. And then you just like get a really good feeling because you know that they work together. You know, that that manager is most likely not gonna be switched out where, you know, which is a huge mess. You know what I mean? And they, it just, everything like works together and I think it’s just a, a super important, important piece. And property management is probably the most important piece, maybe of the whole puzzle.
Gary:
Yeah, yeah. You really need someone that you can rely on. You know, we have in, in Tucson right now, we own seven properties, but they’re managing 50, 55 properties. So I get the, the insight and the buying power of their whole portfolio, which is really important. And, and I’m, I’m not looking for a company that is like a yes company. I want them to push back and say, well, you’re not gonna get those rents. When I’m looking at future properties or we’re talking about our own properties, raising rents, you know, it’s a partnership. They’re, they’re, they are an arm of our team. And super, super important. Yeah.
Charles:
It’s also if I’m mentoring new multifamily investors and I tell ’em to bring that property manager in earlier than later, and if compensate them whatever they need to do, review your numbers and everything. ’cause You know, they, decades of experience, most likely and thousands of units that they’ve worked on. And they can tell you this renovation is completely off. You can’t get these rents like, you know, they, I mean, they can give you some very boots on the ground information, which someone just underwriting a property from, you know, hundreds of miles away just doesn’t know. You know what I mean? And it’s just kind of like one important part of it.
Gary:
Absolutely. And things change so quickly. One, property that’s two miles away can have, you know, total different, you know, know rents and things that work for, from a marketing standpoint. Someone in your submarket could drastically reduce a price and you’re like, w why did I drop you know, occupancy all of a sudden quite a bit. And so you need that expertise. You need that, that team that you can rely on.
Charles:
Yeah, I remember my first, and my first two multifamily properties, literally they were the length between of maybe like a par three hole, right. And the thing that was that it was completely different. I had, I had some that stayed, like literally couldn’t even get them to stay, like past a year. And over here, I mean, many, several years, I had one that was like 10 plus years. So it’s just, it’s just so specific on the street. It’s like, it’s so hyper-local real estate. So one of the things we ha like we spoke about before on previous podcasts was that you had a podcast before called and devoted to asset management. I mean, you really are an expert of asset manager. Can you explain just high level asset management to our listeners and why it’s one of the most important roles of Right. Alongside property management?
Gary:
Yeah. And to clarify for a lot of people, ’cause they don’t know the difference. Asset management is basically managing the manager. So they’re, they don’t own the property. They punch in, they punch out. And so, you know, for us, we wanna set really high expectations from day one on how we manage. And you know, we have our weekly call to, to go over the KPIs and we do it consistently. And we, we go on Zoom, we could see the property manager, our, we are regional managers there. We go over all the different things we wanna measure. And just having that consistency, they know like, Hey, we’re gonna stay on top of that property and they need to perform at their best if they want to continue with us. If we didn’t do that, they’re only gonna put in the same amount of effort that we’re putting in. And so the quality that we get is so much superior than than other people because of that consistency our tracking. And, and just se sending the, sending the bar really high and they know that that’s where they need to, to hit. It’s not, they’re not trying to hit, you know, mediocrity. We want, we want the highest level of performance for our investors.
Charles:
How have you how have you found your best property managers?
Gary:
Yeah, so partly is talking to brokers and saying, Hey, who, who do you recommend visiting properties? And so, you know, touring a lot of properties, we’ll say, well, we really like the staff and the cleanliness at this property versus another property. So that that’s, you know, that’s part of the process. You also want to interview your property managers and then go through a process of a deal that you’re looking at and have them underwrite a deal. Now, if they’re, if they’re just, you know, promising you the world with, you know, rents and rent growth and, and keeping expenses low, that’s not a partnership. You want, you want want realistic underwriting. And so you want someone that’s gonna push back on any of your things that you know, that you assume in your, in your underwriting because that’s a, that’s really, really valuable.
Gary:
And then you wanna know what, what else that you can leverage, because it saves me an HR nightmare for ha for having it in-house. I, I don’t wanna do that. I know some operators talk about having that advantage. I think it’s an advantage not to have it, and I can rely on their expertise, their 35 years of working in Tucson and their whole team. Yeah. And so you know, just finding the right people that I, I relate to because I mean, I talk to the regional manager probably three times a week, the owner of the company a a couple of times a week. And, and so we’re just bouncing off ideas when a new property comes out, I can say, Hey, what, you know, do you have any data on this property? We like it, the underwriting looks good. What, what kind of insight information can you give me? And maybe 50% of the time they can give me information right away, and if not, then they can do a little research. But to having that partnership is so incredibly valuable.
Charles:
Have you found it that your best property managers are already have properties, are managing near where your target is or where you’re already buying properties? Maybe areas or parts of the market?
Gary:
Yeah, I’ve never hired a property management company that wasn’t already in the area. You know, I want them to have that experience because that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m paying them for. I want them to be, have, have years and years in that market because finding good staff is so, so hard no matter what industry you’re in, what area you’re in. So they, you know, I wanna work with someone that’s been in that area for years and then this way I can, I can, I can leverage it. So that’s, that’s, yeah, really important.
Charles:
One thing you said earlier, Gary, about like, you’re getting more because you’re getting more than just property management. And I think a good property manager provides more of this. And just like a short side note, like when I had, I had an older part building years back myself and you know, with these older property buildings, there’s always an issue with the fire department of what you’re doing, stuff like this. Anyway I remember my property manager was walking and they had someone from the fire department there telling me, you know, all these things, a whole punch list of stuff that had to be done. He is telling my property manager, my manager’s telling me this, and he goes, you know what, like, we got it narrowed down to these two things you’re gonna fix and everything’s gonna be fine. And he is like, if they don’t accept this, like I can call the chief and you’re like, I can’t call the chief. I don’t have, you know what I mean? Like, you’ve been there for 25 years. Like, that’s what I’m paying you for too. I’m paying for you to, you know, be smart on the ground and make sure everything works, but also like, you know, pull, you know, to have those relationships and those contacts that I don’t have. You know what I mean?
Gary:
Just like anything else, it’s, it’s a relationship business and it’s, yeah, to have to, to have the, to know the, the, the rules and regulations o over the years to have a lawyer at, at hand to deal with maybe some issues in that area, all these different things. There’s just incredible for your success.
Charles:
So your company has experienced massive growth over the last few years. Can you share some insight of how you scaled your business from I think your first property was just under $2 million to buying a property for 50 mi $59 million. And like, what that process was. And maybe give us a little insight in your first property too, like kind of how you got involved with your first, you know, real multifamily deal.
Gary:
Yeah, so we were looking at deals for a couple years underwriting. And so those were all, all the deals I I didn’t get was, was, was great because it was a learning process. It, I was, it was doing the reps, you know, they Malcolm Gladwell talks about 10,000 hours. So each time I’m gaining experience and fine tuning my underwriting and gaining more, more, more confidence. So we bought a, a 40 two unit, 1.65 million. It looked like a rundown motel had the wrong phone number on, on the, on the property. And we could, should have bought the block at that time. But a, a new paint job, we changed out the doors and it just looked, you know, so much different already just by those two, two things that you would think that anyone in their right mind would’ve, would’ve done. We were increasing rents 50, 70%. And residents were staying because they saw the value. The rents were so cheap when we took it over, it was insane. And you know, we did, we finished our, our value add plan. We actually added a premium. We added five new units with a, with a higher renovation level to sell the, the value add to another buyer. And we sold that within two years of purchasing it for almost double investors’ money.
Charles:
Wow. That’s, that’s pretty, that’s pretty great. Yeah. But they’re really happy with that one.
Gary:
Yeah. Yeah.
Charles:
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Charles:
So kind of what have you, what have you done? I mean, gimme some of the important maybe software or systems that you’ve integrated into your business into assist you with scaling that maybe someone starting out can start utilizing as well in hopes of scaling their business.
Gary:
Yeah. having, having systems and processes are, are so important. Even, even to this day. We have a team of seven now. We’re constantly working on those systems, but as some, something as simple as our, our weekly check-in, it’s on Google Sheets and we have a tab for each week so we can look back at any point in time and say, okay, where we were with delinquency occupancy, where our rents were, when did we cha change rents? We have a Google sheet in that that has a a to-do list so we can hold our team accountable. We have our CapEx tracker. So all the key information for that property is on that Google sheet. And each property has its own its own Google sheet as well. CRM super important for developing investors, obviously on our first deal the raise was really small.
Gary:
It was only 1 million on the $59 million deal. We went to 20 million. Didn’t do it all ourselves, but we, we built up a really good re reputation. So other people wanted to work with us. And that starts with loan brokers, it starts with brokers on, on the, on the properties. ’cause They know, like, and trust us and other people that can we could partner with that could potentially bring in some capital as well. So you develop that over time. It does, obviously it doesn’t happen overnight, and we just focus on quality buys. It wasn’t about quantity, it was about quality. So there have been gaps, you know, I mentioned the 17 months, but there was another time we went 12 months. So it’s just, you’re only as good as your last deal. And so we weren’t racing and do all these different deals.
Gary:
Certainly after we got our first deal, we’re like, all right, this is, we’re gonna bang out like, you know, three, four deals a year. And that just, that just hasn’t been the case. I mean, there have been there has been one year where we did four deals. Other, other times zero were one deals. It’s just staying true to our criteria. Other systems just tracking data every deal that we underwrite, having all the, that information allows us, like I said, to make better decisions, more informed decisions, so you don’t have to spend a ton of money on, on software. Certainly there, there’s some good software out there, but there’s a lot of free resources or, or inexpensive resources to help you you know, perform your best. Yeah,
Charles:
Yeah. Like you were saying about the Google sheets and stuff like that, when we, we track KPIs, we have our some of our assistants like put that in every week. And then when you look at it it goes on on Wednesdays and Thursdays when you look at it and you’re like, wow. You know, you can see the progress over, over the years and kind of what’s happening, what slowed down and kind of put little notes to the side there. What, what was the difference between this and yeah. It’s, it’s really, I mean, it’s, it really transforms your pro. I mean, nothing grows if you don’t track it, right? So it’s and that’s an anything, you know what I mean? But one, one last thing on this, on your scaling, just, I just always wondering, I mean, what was your most important hire that you had that maybe transformed it, maybe one of your first hires?
Gary:
Yeah. I mean, the team has been so important. I couldn’t say one particular hire was the most important, but certainly we started with our executive assistant, which started taking things off my plate and really help with the back office so I can handle more of the the higher level responsibilities. And then we hired an acquisitions slash asset manager to again, handle more of the day-to-day stuff where I can hire more higher level deal with the brokers deal with the deal making all then eventually I hired a, an investor relations person and then a director of operations. I would say I was probably a little slow on hiring each person along the way. You know, you’re cash flow poor and real estate rich, so, but you have to, you have to invest in this, in, in, in your business. It is a business. And, and, and those that, you know, do invest and look for the long haul will be the best people that you want to invest with.
Charles:
Yeah, usually when I speak to business people, it’s the assistant is usually the first assistant they hired was really like, transformed everything. ’cause It’s, I mean, it takes a lot. When I hired my first assistants, I wasn’t like giving ’em anything. And then you just start, like, as you get comfortable, you start just put everything you can. You just throw it take off your plate as much as possible. And it’s it really, I mean, transitions your business into an actual business as you start going. So.
Gary:
Yep. Absolutely.
Charles:
With speaking with a lot of different property managers, real estate investors I mean, what are common mistakes you probably see real estate investors make regarding, let’s just say asset management as one thing or anything else?
Gary:
Yeah, I think asset management is, is the number one mistake. People you know, they don’t put enough time and resources into, into that, and it’s, it, you can’t just buy a property tell your property manager, these are the things we want to do and forget about it. <Laugh>. I’m shocked when I hear people talk about how few times they visit their property. And just because you have a call with a property manager doesn’t mean, you know, they’re doing it. And I mean, we’ve had property managers lie to us and we go to the site and it’s not getting done. And we, we’ve had to fire them unfortunately, you know? And I wanna catch them doing something good. So, like I said, I don’t always tell them we’re coming, but we, we visit ’em on a consistent basis and, and having the properties fairly close together, we could bang it out in, in, in half a day see all of our properties visit, visit new ones.
Gary:
It’s so, so important. You know, you, you see a lot of middle people out there capital raisers and whatnot that, you know, aren’t on the calls. They haven’t really done due diligence, and I’m not talking all of ’em, but you wanna make sure whoever you’re investing is, is, is really spending the time and, and working through the issues. Because like any business, things pop up, things break, and you have to deal with ’em, and you have to motivate staff and it’s sometimes whack-a-mole on these properties. And even if you’re having tons of problems, it doesn’t mean you still can’t make a ton of money on that deal, but it’s just dealing with that on a consistent basis that’s, that’s so critical.
Charles:
So you’re being a hands-on asset manager and, you know, you see some of the progression with people out there that go into owning their own property management company, which I see it, I understand why you would do it. What do I mean, what do you see as some of the high level pros and cons that maybe you’ve kind of veered away from at this point in your, in your career?
Gary:
Yeah, I mean, over time a lot of people have asked, you know, like, Hey, you, you own seven properties in Tucson right now. Why don’t you sell your own property management company? So my last company I owned, we had a 700 employees, probably another 700 independent contractors. And it was, it’s, it was a low low margin thankless job, which I think property management is, and it’s an HR nightmare. You’re always looking for staff. So my thought is I could stay more nimble, stay smaller, work with a company that’s been doing it for 30 plus years, knows that territory really, really well. And if I, if over time I don’t like that market, I could switch to another market, and now I don’t have to move all the staff or hire all, all, all new staff. I could focus on what I do best, which is finding really, really good properties and running them really, really well.
Gary:
So that’s how I look at it. Some, you know, some people that buy, you know, develop their own property management company they talk about not necessarily the the money that they’ll make, but they have more control. And I think if you, you work well with your property management company, you’ll, you’ll stop plenty of control. It’s just, it’s developing those, those relationships and how you work with ’em. Just, you know, at the end of the day, everyone has the same problem. It’s people problem. So developing good relationships goes, goes a long way.
Charles:
Yeah, that’s, that’s exactly how I’ve heard it too, is with the, when you talk to people, what the pro is, it comes out as control, and other than that, they’re not making any money on it, you know what I mean? And obviously it’s a whole nother business you have to run, but it’s also, I’ve heard it before from people that go that route of doing their own property management company when they’ve had bad outcomes with property managers, they found, so maybe they couldn’t find the right one or they got burnt really bad or whatever it might be, and they’ve just gone in and done it themself. But yeah, I mean, I see exactly. I mean, also with you being more hands-on in asset management, you might be able to have more control as well versus a normal, let’s say investor with a property management company.
Gary:
Yeah. You know, there’s no property management company that’s perfect. So if I could find a seven and figure out, okay, how do I get them to a nine by filling in some of the gaps and taking on that responsibility ourselves, now I’m, I’m, I, my workload is so much less than having my own company and I’m maximizing the value again, you know, for, for for that deal. So that, that’s how I look at it. And so trying to fill in the gaps and to make it the best scenario.
Charles:
So Gary, you’ve had successful exits. You built a bunch of companies. I mean, how has your relationship over the years changed towards money?
Gary:
Yeah, that’s a really good question. Definitely many, many years of being frugal. So that’s, that’s changed. Definitely been cash flow poor, but, you know, and investing in, in ways to save me time because I do have worked a lot of hours and, and making sure you know, spending the money in the, you know, the last few years on, on doing really great trips with my kids as they get older and, and, and, and don’t wanna miss out on those opportunities. So, you know, I’m not someone that, you know, stays at expensive hotels or buys things. I don’t, you know, I don’t need that. I, I want really cool experiences. So, you know, taking, taking more advantage of that, that’s, that’s and, and ways to save me time and energy. That’s, that’s where I focus on spending more of my money.
Charles:
Yeah. my wife and I are the same thing. We’re experienced people, so it’s that’s where we kind of put our, put our mind at. So as we’re wrapping up here what have kind of give us like a quick thing about main factors maybe contribute to your success over the years and all these different industries from films to other businesses to now real estate. Like how, how does that work? Tell us about like what you really attribute your success to.
Gary:
I think one of the keywords is passion. I remember I went to Boston University and entrepreneur teacher spoke about being passionate about what you do. And, you know, I’m 20 years old. My, I just wanna make a lot of money and I, you know, I started a restaurant delivery service and I certainly, I love eating food, but I just wasn’t, it was just delivering widgets, you know, know. So it wasn’t, it wasn’t any, any fun. And, and I quickly learned that, and I’m like, ah, that’s what she meant. And so doing things that I really liked doing it, so I didn’t mind working long hours. I like, just really enjoyed it and loved picking other people’s brains. So being passionate about what you do, being consistent with it, you know, being all in and, and persevering, because there are plenty of times where I’ve taken a punch or it didn’t go my my way. Maybe people didn’t like the deal that I, I picked or just struggled in any which way and just kept pushing through and finding solutions has been has been key to my success, you know?
Charles:
So, Gary, what do you think are some of the main factors contributing to your success over the years with all your endeavors that you’ve been involved with?
Gary:
I think it starts with passion. I had a entrepreneur teacher in college talk about being passionate about what you do. And at the time, I’m like, I just, I just wanna make a lot of money. But I quickly learned that if I wasn’t passionate about it, it just, the energy I gave towards that endeavor just wasn’t there. And so, being all in loving what I was doing, it, it, well, the long hours didn’t, didn’t bother me. I, I, I, I always wanted to learn more and talk to other people doing that. And that’s, that’s incredibly valuable. And then also persistence because it doesn’t always is go yours, go go your way. I mean, there’s so many deals that I lost out on on the beginning and it was frustrating, but just being persistent and and consistent as well. You keep, keep getting those reps, keep learning, and you just get better and better and better at what you do. That has allowed me to, to be successful.
Charles:
So, Gary, how can our listeners learn more about you and your business?
Gary:
Yeah, you can go to break of day capital.com. You could sign up for our newsletter. We have investor resources there. There’s a link to our podcast. So yeah, all, all the information is on our, on our website.
Charles:
Thank You so much for coming on again, Gary, and looking forward to connecting with you here in the near future.
Gary:
Absolutely. Thanks Charles. Appreciate it.
Charles:
Hi guys! It’s Charles from the Global Investors Podcast. I hope you enjoyed the show. If you’re interested in get involved with real estate, but you don’t know where to begin, set up a free 30 minute strategy call with me at schedulecharles.com. That’s schedulecharles.com. Thank you.
Announcer:
Nothing in this episode should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Any investment opportunities mentioned on this podcast are limited to accredited investors. Any investments will only be made with proper disclosure, subscription documentation, and are subject to all applicable laws. Please consult an appropriate tax legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Syndication Superstar, LLC, exclusively.
